School advices for expat - All inputs on my thought appreciate.

[Hkelaine]

Hi all,

Have been spending the last two months reading on various websites and forums, esp for mumsnet, which I found the inputs/ experience sharing from all forumers here are invaluable.

We are moving in April 2020 and now the time is ticking for lots of preparation. The first thing we have to nail down by end of this year is home location. So we are planning a trip early Nov to check out some properties. So, would appreciate if anyone can share her thoughts below so we can plan better for the trip.

1. We prefer outer London or outside London for better value for money and still keep the job opportunity open as I believe the business activities are more robust there (I am of finance/ insurance/ consultancy). I can accept to travel up to 50mins to central London. We have two kids, 4 and 2. So, school, low crime, nice residential areas are our top priority. We also think to plan ahead to find a place close to comp schools as our backup while we aim for gramma. So, is it true that we can just focus on the distance from comp as the gramma schools just look at academic?

1. We have hired an education consultants and talked to some friends and property agents. So far, we have in our mind some places to look at. Could you please offer any comment or other suggestions you may have?

- Barnet - near mill hill as someone said Colindale is more for working class. We are also not sure about the very high ethnic diversity 

- Sutton - good schools but again we read that some areas inside are quite rough

- Berkhamsted, St Albans and harpenden - residential area but schools are over subscribed.  Should we be concerned?  Is there a place even outside London with excellent schools, which are not heavily over subscribed?

• Tonbridge well - nice areas but seems the neighbourhood area has high crime ratio

• Kingston/ Richmond - I found some houses eg in Twickenham within my budget (600k for 3beds). But seems the schools are again oversubscribed and even worse not too many backup.

• Reading - we are yet to research yet as the good school guide books we bought only cover London.

• Watford - some recommended St Albans/ Berkhamsted over Watford for living environment. Watford does offer better transportation and convenience, supermarket etc. Which is good as my wife will need several months to get her license and I may need to travel occasionally.

• some friends are asking me to consider Southampton and Winchester. Any opinion?

The more we research, the more we are overwhelmed by the choices and a matrix of the pros and cons. So we would deeply appreciate if you can share some light.

Many thanks.

Elaine.

Epsom has trains into Victoria, Waterloo and London Bridge. It's close enough for Sutton and Wallington Grammar schools if you DCs get in. If not the comprehensive schools are pretty good: www.compare-school-performance.service.gov.uk/schools-by-type?step=default&table=schools&parliamentary=Epsom+and+Ewell&geographic=parliamentary&for=ofsted
You have open countryside near by too.

Tonbridge or Tunbridge Wells ? Neither strikes me as high crime rate so not sure what stats you are looking at. Southampton and Winchester are well outside your 50 min commute, as maybe Watford. Where in London do you plan to work? It can take 50 minutes even within London to get from one end to another.

One of the less reputable papers has just produced an article on London stabbing statistics. A am googling about waiting for a skype call which is my excuse for reading The Sun. I assume they haven't made the statistics up but according to the report Sutton has a lower knife crime rate than Barnet. Parts of Sutton would be a bit Colindale but Epsom is nice. St Albans and all your Hertfordshire options have the Thameslink which is very good, anywhere South West has South West trains, not so good, also a lot go into Waterloo and it can take a while to get to the city from there due to sheer volume of passengers.

Southampton and Winchester are miles away, realistically door to door I would expect 1.5 hours at least and a very expensive season ticket.

Got to go. Good luck

www.thesun.co.uk/news/10081471/knife-crime-rising-fastest-towns-cities-outside-london/

And grammar schools are for age 11-18 so you are some time away from that being an issue worth taking into account yet.

Tunbridge Wells is very very solidly middle class - high crime stats??!! There may be a less salubrious street or two but then everywhere has them and certainly it's nothing on the scale of London. Tonbridge is ok - has some nice residential areas alongside some rougher ones but is a little bit c!oser to London and has a better range of schools. Sevenoaks (where I live) is very nice, closer still to London but that comes with a price tag, our houses are expensive! It's a wealthy area and State school provision isn't great - there are numerous good independent schools (if you can afford them on top of a big mortgage!) but other than that there is a good girls Grammar (with limited places), a decent Christian school (for which you need proof of worship) and a not so great large secondary. Many Sevenoaks kids do the commute to the schools in Tunbridge which mine has just started but you have to be ok with your 11 year old making the journey on public transport!

These are wealthy upmarket towns (Tonbridge being the most mixed) that attract a lot of professional Londoners wanting more space and a better quality of life for their families. Kent is solidly a Grammar county - the Kent test has had in the past questions on it that are not on the National Curriculum and no child from my DDs Primary School who didn't have coaching (paid for or delivered by graduate level parents) has passed it in the last three years. Coaching quite often starts in Year 4. There are a few decent Secondary schools if you don't go down the Grammar route but not that many and they are very over subscribed.

Of the three towns, if the commute wasn't the longest I'd choose Tunbridge Wells. It's very pretty and got the best range of shops and restaurants and is in easy access to the coast.

PS - apologies to Watford folk but it's really not the most attractive town! The commute from Winchester (nice) & Southampton would be really gruelling. St Albans is nice but the houses are expensive. Richmond is lovely (I used to live there) but the property market is extortionate and the State schools above Primary level are a bit mixed.

West Sussex is another option and is a non Grammar County with some good Secondaries. Haywards Heath is a popular commuter town - not the prettiest but next door Cuckfield and Lindfield are. East Grinstead has a mix of pretty old buildings and not so nice newer ones but also has pretty villages close by, frequent trains to London and a very good Secondary (Imberhorne)

And what exactly is wrong with high ethnic diversity? It's one of the things we take pride in in London, so maybe London isn't for you.

I wondered if I'd mis-interpreted that line 1stbabs

There's nowhere rough in Sutton. Not sure where that's coming from. It's a very low crime area with crime rates by far the lowest of the places on your list. Most of the adult residents seem to be either teachers or IT consultants. Obvs the highest attaining state schools in England too + 600k will get you a proper family house. There are 5 grammars with the back up of amazing comps so perfect secondary options. Tons of top notch primaries too. It's an amazing place for families to live and offers tons of stuf to do like sports clubs (rugby, tennis, football, cricket), trampoline park, climbing wall, several dance studios, public golf course with kids clubs, leisure centres, libraries, lots of parks and playgrounds, family events, countryside on the doorstep and very little traffic so it's save for kids to cycle places etc. And you're in zone 5 so it's cheap and easy to get around London.

Looking at schools, rather than the Good Schools Guide which (by its own admission) is completely subjective and doesn't include many schools, you'd be better off starting by looking at the official government stats. You can search by 'parliamentary constituency' for a good overview of the areas on your list.

www.compare-school-performance.service.gov.uk

I don't think you'll be able to get a house in Kingston or Richmond unless it's on a council estate or possibly in Hampton (awful secondary). There are 2 grammars in Kingston but obviously the demand is extra high as there are only two of them for miles around.

Watford and Reading have particularly high crime rates which I'd find off putting (you can check that on police.uk)

Berkhampsted/St Albans/Harpenden are all pretty areas in the commuter belt. Your money won't go very far, though + commute will be expensive if you work in central London. Some very good schools but only comprehensives.

Anywhere in Kent, e.g. Tonbridge, Tunbridge Wells etc has a fully grammar system for secondary. So either your children get into a grammar or they go to an awful comp as there aren't any goodback up options.

Have you considered south Essex? We live near Shenfield. Last oyster stop. 25 mins straight into Liverpool Street (DH does this every day - eldest DD commutes into uni) Grammar schools in Chelmsford if you want them otherwise excellent state secondary and private options. Primary schools are all rated good and several are still one form intake or smaller. Some lovely villages - ingatestone, Mountnessing, Blackmore, Margaretting. If you want a slightly longer commute and slightly cheaper housing options you've got Billericy (still decent place to live).

@JoJoSM2 as someone who lives in Kent (and had to do plenty of research on our options!) not all the comps are awful at all. There are a number of good ones - Wrotham, Hillview, Bennetts, Trinity, Meopham to name a few. But I'd agree it's harder to find a decent comp in this Grammar County and they are definetely over subscribed

I would always start with schools first and go from there. Realistically, if you want to be 100% sure that you get a suitable school you either have to move to an area where schools are undersubscribed so you have a good chance of getting your child into your school of choice/move them if its not working or go private. Be mindful that if you go down the state route you may find yourself obliged to fake your religion in order to get in to the ‘best’ ones. If you plan to stay here indefinitely you might be better off going private (I say this as an immigrant myself, the class system is very very rigid and complicated here, state schools won’t bother with teaching your children the social cues they’ll need the way that private schools do, obviously if you are originally British or only staying short term it’s irrelevant). Check out the Tatler good schools guide for the best state and private schools in the country. It’s not comprehensive but a good starting point for exploring options.

With regards to areas, a lot of the areas you describe are actually in London. Anything inside the M25 is going be quite busy and built up. Unfortunately outer London isn’t as leafy and suburban as the films would lead you to believe. If you aren’t used to city living I would suggest staying outside the M25. Small towns in Britain can vary a great deal. Many of them are nice but many are very horrible. You really need to walk around the whole town to get a good idea of what you are getting yourself into. Another option is living in a village. There are lots of lovely villages with a short train commute to London. Definitely don’t rule out village living - they are probably the most pleasant places to live in Britain. Certainly if you are looking for somewhere white (no offence but that seems to be a consideration for you), nice (so no mixed social housing I assume is what you mean by that), with undersubscribed state schools your best bet is a village with a train station. Don’t worry too much about the whole driving licence thing, you can get everything delivered here.

It would be quite helpful to know where you are from and how long you are planing to stay. If you are only going to be here for a few years you don’t even need to think about grammar schools and obviously expats from different places have very different tastes.

@myrtleWilson I hope we both have!

There are very few undersubscribed great State schools in the regions surrounding London. Not many villages with either a train station or if there is one, a fast train link into London. Pretty villages nearer to a town with good rail links sure.. but they involve driving to the station. I’ve been an ex-pat and finding your groove isn’t always easy, harder so I imagine in a small village with fewer opportunities to interact. I’d agree ethnic diversity (or lack of) does seem to be part of the OPs requirements- not something any British person would be comfortable putting out there (although we all know that figures in for some people). Many areas outside of London are predominantly White English (to their detriment personally) and from our experience outsiders of any kind whether it’s a DFL (down from London) or someone from Spain may take a little longer to feel part of the local community.

That's a lovely post Velvet, says so much about life in this country, including stuff hard to say esp for those unable to see it from the outside, that is, with an incomer's POV. I'm a second gen immigrant myself with 1st gen partner and mixed race DC so I'm particularly sensitive to this; I love the ethnic social and cultural mix of inner London where we live and state schools my DC attends. But I have often observed the point you make about immigrants feeling a particularly urgent need for the British "social clues" they believe only a private education can supply.
That said - many many first generation immigrant families do brilliantly out of the state, indeed comprehensive school system - they have no choice but to use it. My DC's and many other schools round here are full of them! As for those "social clues" . . . either they pick them up later at their RG plus unis, from white-middle-class friends/partners, or just learn as they build their professional careers . . . . I don't think the British class system is necessarily quite as rigid as you make out. Though an over-privileged, over-promoted (privately-educated) sense of entitlement is clearly still rife in many quarters, I don't think any modern society can afford to neglect highly trained and motivated talent whatever ethnicity religion or accent it comes framed in. That's what I'm banking on, anyway

I didn’t get the impression the OP wanted ‘whiteness’? Coming from HK, there’s surely quite an international mix there?

And all these immigrants and their ‘social queues’... Honestly, do people feel exceptionally inferior and desperate to learn the behaviours of the perceived middle classes to feel that they’ll ever fit in?

And Velvet, there are some properly rural areas inside the M25. Actual villages surrounded by fields.

Actually OP, I forgot about New Malden. That’s in the borough of Kingston and you could possibly get a house there on budget. You’ll be able to apply for the Tiffins (the grammars in Kingston) and it’d be quite close to Sutton too but you’d be outside the catchment so you’d need top scores for the girls grammars (the boys currently don’t have a catchment).

At 4 and 2 you have a lot of flexibility, there is plenty of time to move them for secondary.
South Western trains (not South West anymore) aren't too bad - but Surrey and Hampshire are 100% Comprehensive counties (any Grammar schools are in fact fee paying schools). Winchester is more than an hour from London, and Southampton even more.
For a decent commute I would say in the South West direction you need to look at Farnborough, Woking or Guildford. Or Dorking or Reigate and Redhill (Southern Trains - which were a bit of a mess a while back).
Do you want to live in the City, the Suburbs or more like the Countryside?
And a lot depends on your budget.

@NetballHoop - thanks for the advice. Seems Epsom ticks many of the boxes. It seems to me that the idea of aiming for the grammars in Sutton while having the comps in Epsom is very smart. Is there any areas in Epsom you recommend?

@LIZS hi Lizs, I totally mixed the Tonbridge well up with Lewisham. I could not understand why but maybe I was sleepy while reading the Good School Guide saying about “Lewisham is undoubtedly “inner city” with regards to crime headlines, ...”. As for grammars are for 11+, we heard getting in good primary schools is less competitive and we don’t want to move after several years, so we try to local our home for comp as backup.

@SJane48S - we will be avoiding Tonbridge the some tougher areas it has. As I may need to be out-town. I am afraid my wife (an Asian tiny built lady) with two young kids will be stressed. Sevenoaks sounds nice. I will have to give up my job to start it over again in England. So, the “very expensive” does not fit our bill to be more conservative in our finance. Same for independent schools. We have two kids and we have friend raised in a state school in Liverpool and developed all the way up to oxbridge. Not sure my kids are that bright but at least we believe some state schools are good.

@JoJoSM2 - thanks for great advice. I read somewhere before that it is about the Friday night pubs and bar and those drunk kids. We are planning a trip in Nov and will definitively check Sutton out. It is good to know that Sutton has good grammar and at the same time with comp as back up. Is there other thing can offer such privilege? It will be useful for us as we still yet to know whether our kids are academic.

@lumpy76 thanks. We never start researching on Essex. The primary and secondary (comp and grammar) options sound good! Could you kindly share how does life and living environment look like in Essex?

@Velveteenfruitbowl - We will be moving from Hong Kong. sorry that I do not understand about “social cue”. Lots to learn about the culture in London. Is there any outside London Town you recommend us to look at? Village may be a bit too complicated for us to explore by staying for a week for home sourcing before we permanently move in.

@SJane48S - thanks for your thoughtful understanding about our thinking on the diversity thing.

@marytuda - thx for providing a different perspective about the “social cue”. I see where you come from. And I am with you. I think for us, independent schools may be an option for secondary schools. Let’s see how the kids grows and how we can manage our finance after settling down. But initially, we want to be prudent about our finance and sometimes we believe in not to over prepare for our children so then they may develop better all round.

@JoJoSM2 - yes. We also heard good words on new Malden in Kingston. How would you choose between Epsom and new Malden? I am sold about the idea living next to comp and shooting for grammar in Sutton. Make a lot of sense to me as an outsider.

@MollyButton - thanks molly. We are living in a crowded city now. I think the most densely populated area in the crowded HK. We want to move as we want to give more space for the children. But still, for raising a family, we want convenience for household shopping. We tried spend several night in Lake District last summer with the help of Airbnb. Too rural and remote for us. So I think the best will be some bigger town or small but developed town. Any other suggestion will be appreciated.

Thanks again all. I am spoiled by all the thoughtful replies so far. Will appreciate if we can hear more.

It depends on your budget. There's amazing places but useless if you cannot afford a house there. At those ages I would focus on the place being a good family home rather than schools, you can always move down the years

Your exacting requirements mean I would suggest perhaps outer London or surrounding counties, you seem concerned about diversity which seems rather odd when you are diverse yourselves

I agree. What will get you a shoe box somewhere will get you a nicer, bigger house somewhere else. Many areas have good or outstanding Primaries. I’d focus on house and area first while your children are small and take your time to find your own area. Good luck OP! Somewhere bigger with lots of opportunities to interact with people and build relationships as an ex-Pat is the way I would go. Moving countries and cultures can be quite a shock to the system from experience. Having small children will help though as through them, you will meet many more local people than you would otherwise.

New Malden and Epsom have excellent single sex comps. Sutton has excellent co-ed comps. So depends if you want single sex or coed.

You might also want to check the admission criteria for grammars. The girls’ grammars is Sutton do reserve a lot of places for candidates near the school. The boys’ currently don’t but it can’t be guaranteed not to change in the future. You need to check the distances from Epsom and New Malden - I have a feeling you might be in ‘catchment’ for one of them with some luck. If not, and you have a daughter, she’d need to come top 200 out of thousands to get a place.

We’ve lived in Sutton for almost 5 years. We looked round Epsom too but didn’t see anything better about it (contrary to the popular opinions on Mumsnet). Sutton is zone 5 and DH commutes so it was a no-brainier + some days he likes to cycle into the office which wouldn’t be possible from Epsom + being outside London trains are more expensive. New Malden wasn’t for us as we wanted a massive house with a massive garden and within walking distance of the coutryside and NM is in zone 4. You’ll probably find New Malden a fair bit more expensive as it’s zone 4.

In terms of Friday nights, there used to be some nightclubs in Sutton but they shut down a few years ago. There are several pubs in the town centre, a lot of restaurants etc but it’s all very civilised - mostly families or friends out for a meal, a drink and a chat. You’ll also see there are loads and loads of 70+ yo in Sutton (tons of retirement flats around) and a little electric car taking them up and down the high street. Definitely very safe any time of day or night.

Generally, in terms of being super safe with top schools, tons of amenities and great transport links, Sutton is absolutely amazing. The one thing that some people might not like is that the town centre isn’t very charming or full of boutiques. If that’s a priority, then some towns in the commuter belt are a much better for that.

Anyway, you’ll get a feel for places when you come over and see if anywhere grabs you.