School advices for expat - All inputs on my thought appreciate.

[Hkelaine]

Hi all,

Have been spending the last two months reading on various websites and forums, esp for mumsnet, which I found the inputs/ experience sharing from all forumers here are invaluable.

We are moving in April 2020 and now the time is ticking for lots of preparation. The first thing we have to nail down by end of this year is home location. So we are planning a trip early Nov to check out some properties. So, would appreciate if anyone can share her thoughts below so we can plan better for the trip.

1. We prefer outer London or outside London for better value for money and still keep the job opportunity open as I believe the business activities are more robust there (I am of finance/ insurance/ consultancy). I can accept to travel up to 50mins to central London. We have two kids, 4 and 2. So, school, low crime, nice residential areas are our top priority. We also think to plan ahead to find a place close to comp schools as our backup while we aim for gramma. So, is it true that we can just focus on the distance from comp as the gramma schools just look at academic?

1. We have hired an education consultants and talked to some friends and property agents. So far, we have in our mind some places to look at. Could you please offer any comment or other suggestions you may have?

- Barnet - near mill hill as someone said Colindale is more for working class. We are also not sure about the very high ethnic diversity 

- Sutton - good schools but again we read that some areas inside are quite rough

- Berkhamsted, St Albans and harpenden - residential area but schools are over subscribed.  Should we be concerned?  Is there a place even outside London with excellent schools, which are not heavily over subscribed?

• Tonbridge well - nice areas but seems the neighbourhood area has high crime ratio

• Kingston/ Richmond - I found some houses eg in Twickenham within my budget (600k for 3beds). But seems the schools are again oversubscribed and even worse not too many backup.

• Reading - we are yet to research yet as the good school guide books we bought only cover London.

• Watford - some recommended St Albans/ Berkhamsted over Watford for living environment. Watford does offer better transportation and convenience, supermarket etc. Which is good as my wife will need several months to get her license and I may need to travel occasionally.

• some friends are asking me to consider Southampton and Winchester. Any opinion?

The more we research, the more we are overwhelmed by the choices and a matrix of the pros and cons. So we would deeply appreciate if you can share some light.

Many thanks.

Elaine.

OP, when you come to visit and you’d like to see some very leafy areas in Sutton, then look in South Sutton (need to be at least 1km from the station to get to the very green parts), Carshalton Beeches, maybe Carshalton Village (very pretty and 1.5 miles from Sutton station) or towards Cheam Village (1mile from Sutton station) - it has a nice feel and the Nonsuch Park there is fab.

Your update is quite illuminating. I am so sorry about what is happening in Hong Kong right now. I think everyone here will agree that it’s terrible. I was passing through Hong Kong during the airport demonstrations, I think it’s sage to say that everyone I have spoken to have expressed great regret and sympathy for the residents of Hong Kong.

Having read your updates I take it that your priorities are:

1. Schools
2. Low crime rate
3. Fairly built up

On this basis I would recommend looking at places classed as Market towns. They tend be smaller and have lower crime rates as a result. If you live in the centre of one you will be able to walk to shops and a train station. We live in one and it’s very convenient and a pleasant environment to raise children. Public transport isn’t always great though in these areas so I would recommend looking for something walking distance both to schools and amenities.

You may also consider ‘villages’ within the M25. They do have fields around them as a pp pointed out but they really aren’t at all rural. They tend to be fairly built up and will have at least a small shop and a few restaurants etc in them. There will usually be a bigger supermarket a short drive away. Again, despite being quite central they tend to be lower in crime rates than the ‘suburban’ areas of London. As an example Id take raddlet. It has a few shops, a few restaurants/pubs and a tutoring centre (a bit random but hey) on the high street. It has train into London and is a short drive to larger supermarkets. It’s quite near to St Albans. You may want to drive around that area and decide what you like the feel of better. That way you should be able to get an idea of the kind of environment you want and then you can look at towns where you have a train station and good schools in the centre.

When you find a place you think you want do explore the entire town (if you have time) to get a proper idea of what it’s like. You tend to get a very strange set up with geographically small pockets of wealth/deprivation bordering each

Velveteenfruitbowl, go on police.uk and you’ll be in for a big surprise with regards to crime rates in some of London suburbs vs commuter market towns.

Nothing in the South East of England is as Rural as the Lake District. For example Ocado deliver just about everywhere.
And I'm a big fan of the "true comprehensive" schools - as they can do very well by all pupils, and nothing is decided on how a child feels one day when they are 10 (or rarely 11) at the beginning of year 6.

Mill hill / Barnet / Hendon / Finchley are great. Good state schools, plenty of private schools, safe ethnically diverse and easy to get into central London

Hello Elaine,

I can't help you with north London or market towns, but I am in HK ATM and moving back to London summer 2020. We have a house in Wandsworth and plan on getting junior into a local secondary...best one we can get. I do know Sutton but not schools terribly well.

If you want to chat over a coffee DM me, I'll b happy to help as best I can.

City chick.

@JoJoSM2 thx for the further info. It is very useful. We slightly lean to coed as DD is studying in girl school and also fancy being in the same school with her little bro. But it also depends on the living environment of the two options. Thx for directing us to some nice places for Sutton. Are they for children to go for some green or places for look for a home? Do you have any place recommended for us to look at in our next trip?

@Velveteenfruitbowl - the Hong Kong situation is really disappointing. Safety wise, everyone is very okay. Without talking too much about policitics, we simply cannot see the dispute between people (or some parties) can be resolved anytime soon. For village within M25, will definitively check our raddlet but my worry is that my wife may not be handle too well for the potential inconvenience. You read our requirement well but she needs supermarket in short driving distance. And I may need to arrive a bit later than she to finish things off here. Market town sounds good. Any places good we should look at? Thanks.

@MollyButton thanks!

@Answerthequestion our initial search shortlisted the Barnet (mill hill > Barnet > Colindale). Not much info we have for Hendon or Finchley though. You raised a good pout about safety. I avoid responding to the comments made early about my uncertainty on diversity. But actually it is about safety. I don’t want to describe some prolonged safety issue related to this topic in HK as I don’t want to provoke anyone (and sorry if I did). But I took the point of the diversity beauty in England.

@citychick - sure city! My pleasure to have your hands. Pls check PM. Thanks!

The Sutton areas I listed are all very nice places to live and the greener parts. Areas near Sutton Common station are also popular but you’re more of a bus ride from a large park or the coutryside but probably never more than a 5 min walk from a smaller park/playground. All these locations will be close to the High St, all the shops, cinema and all leisure/sport facilities.

All primary schools are mixed. The grammars are all single sex (checked last night and for 2020, 4 out of 5 reserve a lot of places for local children so much more difficult to get in from outside the area).
The most sought after co-ed comprehensives are Glenthorne, Cheam High and Greenshaw.

In terms of less desirable areas, there are 0 places that are dangerous or full or grafffiti or rubbish etc. The less attractive looking and poorer part is near the St Helier hospital and the Rose Hill Roundabout but with your budget you’ll be looking at the nice parts anyway.

There are some social housing blocks here and there (on the sides of the bottom end of the high street in particular) but again, the areas are clean and well maintained and there isn’t much trouble. You’ll also find that it’s mostly normal people working in lower paid jobs (eg DS’s nursery nurse and the receptionist from my health club live in those). But again, with your budget you wouldn’t look there anyway.

OP, if you wanted to look at market towns, then south of London my favourites would be Dorking and Reigate. Horsham is a bit further out and pretty too. No grammar options that way, though and not very international (and that’s generally the way with the desirable market towns).

I second the suggestions for Mill Hill/ Barnet/Hendon/Finchley if you're thinking of North London. Diverse, plenty of green spaces, good schools, decent transport links. And a lot of supermarkets - although I'd suggest getting your food delivered, TBH.

Further in, and more expensive but very pleasant, there's Crouch End/Muswell Hill/Alexandra Palace (but don't cross the tracks into Bounds Green/Wood Green).

Winchester, Alresford or Alton

there are good state schools in barnet borough, inc some that go all the way from age 5 to 18, eg in Hendon, which is very popular. Colindale is not particularly working-class, more mixed, but has many good supermarkets and a specialist oriental zone with shops and restaurants. Finchley is also good and they are all well connected, with access to alternative routes into town in case of disruption on one line.
for your budget you will be a little limited in terms of family homes, have you thought of Borehamwood, good shops, railway, still near good schools, where prices are a little lower. but being outside the London boroughs children will not get free bus travel.
I wouldn't consider such outlandish places as Winchester, as the mother/wife esp may feel v isolated. near to London is much better for a richer life, so many cultural activites and easy public transport. remember that outside London, public transport hardly exists, which will severely cramp your children's activites as they get older.
I know people who grew up out in the sticks because their parents thought it was a better life style, but the children once into double figures, hated it, not being able to get around, do things, meet up, without being dependent on being chauffeured by parents. some really resented being so isolated and couldn't wait to leave home, get into a big city.
good luck.

For st ALbans you need to be very near the school you want to get in.

There are no graders that I’m aware of except maybe the girls school but I thought that was a private school.

My house is for sale near the London train Lovely 3 bed. Buy that

I wouldn’t even be considering London if you can avoid living there. Gang culture is getting worse and worse and as a parent I wouldn’t be able to let my kids out.

Winchester is hardly outlandish (extremely attractive and with a great deal of history!). Like @madeyemoodysmum I wouldn’t consider London either. I lived there for 15 years and somehow still manage to live a ‘rich life’! It’s a very London attitude to assume anywhere outside is inferior but having lived in both, I prefer green places, bigger cheaper houses and no police coming into school to give my children talks on knives! Barnet is ok with decent schools but personally the quality of life for all age groups where we live now is infinitely better with the same access travel time wise to centre of London that we had when we lived outside Richmond

But I would agree that commuting to London from Winchester isn’t sensible!

@JoJoSM2 again, thanks for the insight on Sutton. Help tremendously.

@TerrificEchidnaSpikes - I also heard (first time last week) about the convenience of ordering from amazon. Come from a place NO ONE orders food making dinner and we just know amazon sells books/ electronic/ clothing, I was shocked. But it is good if we have option to browser in brick and mortar shop to touch the real food. How would you rate the school opportunity between Barnet/ mill hill/ Hendon/ Finchley?

Thanks @IceCreamConewithaflake. Will have a look on those places.

@alexdgr8 - will look into Borehamwood. How would you rate the school opportunity between Barnet/ mill hill/ Hendon/ Finchley?

All supermarkets deliver in the UK. But you do get brick and mortar supermarkets everywhere too.

How about Bromley? Hayes grove, Orpington, Chislehurst, West Wickham and Beckenham (the latter two are lovely in particular) and all good transport options into central London. (Train from Hayes grove to London Bridge half an hour for example)

Whereabouts in London will you be working? This should really determine your search if you only want a 50 minute commute.

Finance jobs in London are often based around Liverpool Street or Canary Wharf though more boutique can be in Mayfair but that's rarer. Do you have a job already? Where will it be based? Location of the job will affect where is 50 minutes.

Grammar schools usually have catchment areas but they are very large - the one DD went to its catchment covered around 200 schools. The grammars in London are very hard to get into (roughly the top child in each primary for ours - primary had 60 kids and only DD got in), grammars in Kent are easier and much higher percentage. There's a forum called the 11 plus forum which can go through that when the time comes. My daughter hated the grammar so now at a comprehensive. A lot of areas do not have grammars in them.

We moved out of London to countryside partly due to the crime, safest areas are out of London unless you've got infinite money. It's worth looking into train routes rather than tube if you are based by Liverpool Street. Somewhere like Hertford (East) or Ware are very safe and have good schools, commute would be under 50 minutes if by Liverpool Street. The commuting costs can get high though. Further out there's Bishops Stortford which is fairly safe, good schools and good value. Saffron Walden is lovely and amazing schools, incredibly safe but you have to get 2 miles to train station and commute is over 50 minutes and not always reliable in winter. Sawbridgeworth is pretty and safe but very small.

Honestly, what is it with the gang culture? The OP isn't looking to move to an estate in Lambeth, Southwark or Newham. Some London boroughs have 0 gang activity and crime rates below the national average. They're very safe places to live.

All of the above have supermarkets.

@JoJoSM2 knife crime isn't just restricted to sink estates in rough areas. For example, 3 men were stabbed in Barnet in the summer, one of whom died. The children of two families we know in North London in different but non dodgy areas have both had police come into their state secondary schools to talk about knives and one of them witnessed a knife incident in their school between Year 10 boys. Barnet obviously isn't rough but unfortunately thanks to cuts in policing and lack of investment in youth engagement and development programmes, violence like a hydra does seem to be popping up in wider locations. Yes there is youth crime outside London but a far far smaller percentage of that involves weapons. I'm not sure for £600k and presumably looking for 3 bedrooms you'd find much in the desirable areas of North London either.