Doing 4 a levels

[Lunchonawagon]

Dd currently doing 4 a levels- history, maths, biology and chemistry which she started with the premise of doing maths to AS and then sticking with the others for A2. However, she’s now saying that she really loves all her subjects and wants to opt out of the maths AS exam to do the full a level (have to let the school know), saying that she doesn’t want to stop doing maths and also that she’s much more likely to get a place on her chosen degree (medicine) with maths. My concern though is that she will have much more work than her peers, who’ll be sitting the same exams having had more time to prepare, with less free periods (5 hours a week less) to study in. Am I underestimating her or am I right to be concerned about her mental health and grades next year?

Four leaves very little time for other things No, not the case with ours either. They wanted to do more than the minimum but had plenty of time for extracurricular activities and fun too.

However, education is also about much more than 3 subjects. Many of those who do 4 do not do 4 because of the narrow 'needs X grades' functional argument - they do it because they genuinely cannot narrow down their school experience to 3 subjects.

That is exactly the case with my dd. She wanted to do Maths and Chemistry but also wanted to continue with French as well as Music, both of which she loves.

Yes, she only has one free period per week but she manages just fine and has enough time to fit in her sports and music as well as working towards her Gold DofE.

@cantkeepawayforever there is a lot wrong with the British education system and specialising too early is one such fault in my opinion.

But....I don't know of many dc who don't care about grades in the way you describe and in actual fact it would be more healthy to have a rounded educational experience than obsess about A* grades. But that is not the case. These days all the Russell Group universities require mostly A grades for most courses. I did a Chemistry degree in the early 90s, my offer was CCC. Today it is AAA. It really bothers me that anything below a B is seen as a fail. Is it any wonder that everyone is obsessed with grades??

What I meant was, doing four subjects leaves very few free periods during the day. Compared to the 3 subject student who can get most of his/her work done in the daytime freeing up the evenings. Good for your dc if they are high achievers.....but something has to give, there are only so many hours in the day. We all encourage our children to do all these activities at a high level, we push them to achieve......or sometimes that drive comes from the child themselves. They constantly feel they have to be 'doing' something. I don't believe that has a good effect on mental health in the long run. Why don't we value downtime/relaxing or even, heaven forbid, doing nothing sometimes?

My point was, there are other ways to educate yourself in a range of subjects than sit an exam in it. You can still learn about other subjects in all sorts of different ways. I don't want my children to think the only way to learn is to study for an A Level. I want them to learn for the joy of learning without the need for a formal qualification.

The general advice is you need to study one hour independently for every timetabled hour. For 4 A levels, that implies 40 hours of study per week. Unless you are v organised, that leaves little time for much else.

If you are targeting medicine, you will additionally need to complete time shadowing doctors and time volunteering. If this is your vocation, why risk it with the extra A level?

Personally, I would advise dropping History which, whilst interesting and useful for critical reading, will not be much valued by medics. It is also very time intensive.

There are v bright students who, especially in Maths, just ‘get it’ and need v little work. I really have very little recollection of revising Maths at all (and I did Maths and Further Maths) but I did (and do) enjoy problem solving so maybe just don’t remember it as ‘work’.

It is so early in the course, though, and it does (usually) start gently. She does not even need to think about it until after Christmas.

My daughters private school has just announced that the normal pathway is going to be 3 a levels only. There will be some flex in special circumstances but I think they felt it was better that children sat 3 and minimised the risk of slipping a grade. More teaching time for the 3 is being offered to compensate. I think it is sensible.

I don't know any students who got medical offers who did 4 levels. Only one of them did maths.

If medical schools don't ask for maths A level, why are you convinced they are secretly only offering places to students who do maths

twosoups1972

Thank fuck for you. There is so much utter rubbish spouted on here about grades. And I agree wholeheartedly about the well being week stuff. Grammar schools are the worst for this IMO and I'm bloody glad mine didn't go to one. Seems like an utterly joyless childhood.

Twosoups,

You are not comparing like with like. The CCC offer you got was at least BBB in today’s parlance.
The A* grade is effectively what an A was and, in Maths (for instance) the C grade comes in in the low 40s (or maybe even 30s).

In your day, as well, unis attracted about 12% of academically inclined pupils. Now, many more want to attend a uni without being well suited to it.

The causes of stress are many and various but most teenagers spend at least 2 hours on screens per day which, firstly, compresses the rest of the day and, secondly adds stresses of its own.

Schools are also desperate to tick a number of boxes so they encourage enrichment and many other co-curricular activities (private schools are especially bad here).

Encouraging taking pleasure in work and allowing kids freedom to pursue their own interests is, IMO, a far better way to promote achievement and mental well being.

Can't believe this debate is still going on! No-one needs to do four A-levels, and I wouldn't encourage it.

However: Four leaves very little time for other things and The general advice is you need to study one hour independently for every timetabled hour isn't always true for very academic students, particularly if they have good teachers, are in an able class, and are doing science subjects that don't require lengthy essays.

Sometimes, the child's own interests coincide with an extra A-level. My DS did a language, not for the grade, but because he'd been inspired by the teachers, and still does an extra class at university.

Glut,

'Can't believe this debate is still going on!'

And yet you are prolonging it to not add anything meaningful!

'However: Four leaves very little time for other things and The general advice is you need to study one hour independently for every timetabled hour isn't always true for very academic students'

You are quoting me here but seeming to have either missed the word 'general' or have ignored it. General things aren't ALWAYS true (by definition). I also qualified it in the post you are quoting by saying some could easily manage 4, especially in mathematical subjects.

'My DS did a language, not for the grade, but because he'd been inspired by the teachers, and still does an extra class at university.'

Fascinating stealth boast but entirely irrelevant to the OP who is questioning whether her daughter should persist with Maths alongside History in order to obtain a place at medical school....

I was careful not to stealth boast by specifically changing my user name.

Look here for the answer to the question "Which university requires which A levels to do medicine?"
www.themedicportal.com/application-guide/choosing-a-medical-school/what-a-levels-do-you-need-to-be-a-doctor/

For some medical schools, the nest A levels in the world won’t get you a place if your BMAT or UKCAT are not at the right level. Look at admission process and criteria and play to individual strengths.

I agree with you twosoups1972, but on Mumsnet there is a disproportionate number of parents with extremely bright, high achieving children who seem to be able to do 4 or more A levels, work, have multiple hobbies, do some volunteering etc etc. These parents don’t seem to understand that most 16/17/18 year olds do find A levels very stressful, and can’t manage all the extra-curricular activities, because to them having very bright children is normal. Unfortunately some posters of these spectacularly bright children like to (not so stealth) boast and make parents of less academically able children feel inadequate.

DD has CFS and was on her knees by the end of year 12 after taking 4 AS levels. The only extra-curricular she did was as a young leader at Brownies, and that was enough for her.

Others, however, manage and actually enjoy taking 4 subjects

I suspect that they are in the minority. DD and many of her peers started off with 4 subjects in year 12, and hated it. They dropped down to three after AS levels and felt far more in control. And these were fairly bright children, several of whom achieved A and A* at A level.

They are in the minority, but the OP's child got all 9s in her GCSEs - better than my DC, for the record - so I assume she is extremely bright. For most children, it would be too much, but perhaps not her.

There is so much shit on this thread being posted by people who know f all about the subject. Unless you are a professional keep your uninformed opinions to yourself. You are not helping the OP.
Just because your wonderful kid did a thing does not mean that you can argue from the particular to the general. If you are going to use the word "my" then shut up, you do not know. There are enough professionals on this forum who really do know their shit, let them advise the OP as I have done via pm to cut through the crap.

Sorry guys, too much wine and a growing feeling of off-pissedness caused this last arrogant comment.
There is a simple reason for this in that I actually have written the book on the topic of how to get from year 11 to a RG uni from a normal comprehensive school. I also wrote a version for teachers in this type of school.
I say "the book" because, although there are books out there that deal with how to apply to RG unis, there are none that give students everything they need on how to learn, revise, use their time, choose the right A-levels, etc, etc and simply do all the stuff they will get from a good Public School without actually having to go there. (There is one book like it, written in the US by two ladies who felt the same about Ivy league applicants.) so only two in the English speaking world.
My school was a large comprehensive that at one time had the 5th biggest sixth form in the country. But it was creamed by local grammars and private schools. Nevertheless, after a while, it was noticed by the Head of Sixth, and his superiors, that I was having more than my "fair share" of success with all this, so they created a special "mentor" group for me and called it the "elite" mentor group. (In other schools this may be called tutor group or simply "form").
When I retired they carried on the concept of the elite mentor group but it foundered because they could not find another mentor like me who could get the level of success that I got. So the Head of post 16 studies, to give him his technical title, and some of my ex-students, asked me to put all this in a book so others in the same situation could benefit from it, which I did, as I feel passionately that money should not buy educational success. The government feels this too now, but they are going about it in a barmy way by telling the unis to "make allowances" for the backgrounds of applicants. Which must pee off parents who send their kids to private schools! But also, why should unis have to second guess the calibre of an applicant based on their background?
So this is why I pm those who have posted threads on this topic. They have all been grateful, some have bought the book and one has even posted a really nice review of it after reading it.
The book contains chapters like "How to cope when your teacher is no good", "What to do when you are feeling low", "How to finance your degree", "How to make best use of genuine free time", "How to make sure your Study Skills are really effective" in fact 22 separate chapters containing all the stuff you might expect to find but a lot of stuff people do not even realise it is necessary to know about.
It is also aimed at students going to 6th form colleges who do not necessarily have even the benefits of being in a school.
The teachers' book contains similar information but from the other side of the desk as it were, but also practical advice about how to organise the mentor group so that all his info can be dealt with. timetabling advice, paperwork advice, etc etc.
Hope this explains my comment.

So @StanleySteamer your thoughts on doing 4 A levels in 2019/2020 ?

Basically, don't. Ensure you get the best grades possible in the CORRECT 3 A-levels.
They can always study the 4th subject privately or indeed catch it up at uni. I have had several students do that.
Check with individual unis what they are looking fo,r leave nothing in that respect, or in any respect, to chance.

@moreturkeyforme if you are seriously interested pm me for more info

PS, I will be off the air as travelling for the next 8 days or so, but will answer pms after that.

Things may have changed since I was at school, but I did these exact A-Levels (all 4), got 4 A’s, had great GCSE results and I didn’t get in to medical school. This was 10 years ago though. Back then there were people in my year doing 5 A-Levels in order to secure a place.

I did 5 a levels (including general studies that was only 2 hr a week lessons, but still exams) i did well with my grades, a, b, b, c, c but I'm sure i would have done better if i had done less subjects. I didn't find it too stressful though

It's very simple. Email the universities that your dc is interested in, tell them which A levels you are thinking of doing and ask if that would be a good fit for the course.

@StanleySteamer just interested as often hear this on MN about 4 A levels etc.

I have one DC who did sat 3 a levels last summer and another D.C. who is sitting 3 this summer.

Advice on both occasions by their respective 6th forms was 3 a levels.

No need to PM you thanks.