Doing 4 a levels

[Lunchonawagon]

Dd currently doing 4 a levels- history, maths, biology and chemistry which she started with the premise of doing maths to AS and then sticking with the others for A2. However, she’s now saying that she really loves all her subjects and wants to opt out of the maths AS exam to do the full a level (have to let the school know), saying that she doesn’t want to stop doing maths and also that she’s much more likely to get a place on her chosen degree (medicine) with maths. My concern though is that she will have much more work than her peers, who’ll be sitting the same exams having had more time to prepare, with less free periods (5 hours a week less) to study in. Am I underestimating her or am I right to be concerned about her mental health and grades next year?

[StanleySteamer]

Do listen to @khalessi71, he OBVIOUSLY knows the answer to your question, and I looked after loads of students in the sixth form and the situation was exactly the same for them. Only do what is necessary to get into medical school, i.e. the 3 they ask for, and spend any spare time doing the other stuff he/she mentioned. Medical schools, as other RG universities, are looking for far more than the number of A-levels and the grades, although they do expect top grades in the three they take. This is how Public Schools score over state schools. There is far more to getting into unis than the number and grades of A-levels. Anti-spam rules prevent me from telling you more.

[Alessiajasper]

@Lunchonawagon I think it's early to know, but 4 A-levels will require a lot of time and effort. While it's doable (friends' children have done it), it requires good time management and lots of hard work. It also helps if they enjoy the subject.

[StanleySteamer]

In the 3 A-levels as opposed to 4 A-Levels argument, the Further Maths A-level is seen by many places as being less work than a totally different 4th A-Level, which is why it is often given fewer timetabled lessons than another A-level. When asked, as I have been, to directly advise on this, my normal answer is to just do the three, but if someone REALLY wants to do a fourth and is an absolute maths whizz, then I would say, OK, do the Further Maths, but NOT at the cost of top grades in the other 3.

[Cotonshaded]

Thanks both for the info (sorry I don't know how to tag!). DC is absolutely loving maths and further maths (and I think quite a few entry requirements for maths require further maths also if it is offered?) so it perhaps makes sense to continue that rather than the extra stress of the research needed for an EPQ..on the timetabling point the college have stressed to us like PPs have said above that it's now the norm to do 3 a levels and 4 is only allowed in v limited cases, so I suspect they won't jiggle around the timetable to cater for the only student affected (out of 900)? The college also has an "achievers" programme that runs in the same slot though doing visits to unis etc - I hope DC can be shoehorned into those visits even without doing the EPQ!

[StanleySteamer]

@Cotonshaded, 4 A-levels plus an EPQ is somewhat over-egging the pudding, if DC wants to do medicine check really hard into it, they will deffo want the Chemistry A-level and most likely "one other science" or maybe "or Maths". As I keep saying on this type of thread, make the UCAS website your friend and look hard at the Uni websites for their course requirements. I am a tiny bit surprised that the EPQ has a timetable clash, a decent EPQ tutor ought to be able to make time to see your DC from time to time outside of a timetabled slot as there is not much actual teaching involved, but then maybe I am being a bit too expecting of altruism here. I was used to teaching subjects off timetable and never worried about it as the students involved were so keen it really was a pleasure, but if his/her teachers are clockwatchers... Agree about op's point re Further Maths by the way.

[GlutOfUnripeTomatoes]

Yes, I'm definitely dotage material!

Cotonshaded If it's Further Maths she would drop to do an EPQ, one thing to bear in mind is that studying Further Maths makes the maths really easy, so you are more likely to get an A*, if that's a concern.

Also, re an EPQ one of mine did one, and really enjoyed the research. However, it is really time consuming.

[StanleySteamer]

So Scholarship Levels were hugely important to students wanting to go to uni before 1962 as it would have helped enormously with the cost of going to uni before the advent of grants in 1962.
What to me is quite frightening is how narrow the band of time was in which it was possible to get a grant to go to university. 1962 until 1989 when the rot set in and an awful lot of getting rid of grants went on under Labour governments, not really the way you would think it would go.
When I went "up" in 1976, it was just seen as normal to get a grant of some sort, I got a full grant as I had already worked for four years previous to that, but later on when my first wife needed to do her PGCE to become a teacher, despite the fact she had been married to me for 3 years, her grant was assessed on her father's income, and, as he was French, she got them minimum grant and of course "papa" refused to pay a centime towards what he was deemed to be paying by Dorset LEA! So we had a very tight year.

[TeenPlusTwenties]

as they are still alive and not in their dotage
My DDs might beg to differ.

How interesting though. I always thought it was a slightly weird name.

[StanleySteamer]

Finally found it, I was right, it was Scholarship level, although also referred to as "Special paper". (thought I was going mad for a minute there!) see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scholarship_Level
Note that State Scholarships were ended in 1962 and thus named Special papers thenceforth. All stopped in 2001. So these two MNers who took them did take Special Papers not Scholarship level as they are still alive and note in their dotage!

[StanleySteamer]

@GlutOfUnripeTomatoes thanks for that! 1981, the year I first started teaching, although I didn't get to teach A level until a couple of years after that. None of our students were deemed to be up to S papers, I suppose, although It may just be that you were one of the least few to take one.
I will do further research.

[TeenPlusTwenties]

I think S was Special paper too as I did Maths & Further Maths Special papers in 84.

[GlutOfUnripeTomatoes]

@StanleySteamer
with a ref from somewhere that I couldn't find!
"Special", ref my A-level certificate from 1981
But maybe other boards called it Scholarship...

[Cotonshaded]

Interesting to hear about the EPQ being helpful in getting offers; my DC is also studying 4 A levels (chemistry, biology, maths, further maths) as they are currently thinking of either medicine or a maths related degree. They are coping well with the homework etc at the moment (probably 4 essay based subjects would be a different story!), but college just can't timetable in the EPQ into the weekly timetable (pupils in DC's stream can do an EPQ or another AS level, usually a language or philosophy) due to timetabling clashes. I'm wondering if it is better in the long run to drop one of the A levels and do the EPQ?

[StanleySteamer]

@Trewser and @Ginfordinner, the "not coping" I referred to was to do with not being able to cope with the demands of the course on an intellectual level , nothing to do with not being able to cope with general uni life/living away from home etc. I do not disagree with oyu both about the necessity to be able to cope on that level, I saw enough students who could not cope in various ways, financial, separation from friends and family, skipping lectures as they'd bunked school and got away with it then discovering too late that uni was different, (and then dropping out), spending their grant cheque in the first 3 weeks, drugs, sex, you name it.
Perhaps I should write another book, "How to survive your first year in Uni"!
@GlutOfUnripeTomatoes, you may be right, I'd be interested in seeing a ref on this from somewhere. As I said in an earlier post, I did try and research this but got nowhere. I am over 50% sure that the S stood for Scholarship but am prepared to be contradicted with a ref from somewhere that I couldn't find!

[sendsummer]

What she is saying about her concerns of not getting an A for the Maths AS level does n’t seem to be consistent with her wish to continue with maths as a full A level. She should be feeling comfortably at the level of an A grade in year 12 for her not to be overstretched in year 13 with 4 A levels. If doing well in maths is taking effort and she is a perfectionist who self doubts at this stage then it will be much worse by the end of year 12 let alone in year 13.
Tell her to do 3 A levels. If she wants to she can extend her work by extra reading or a competition essay or similar.

[mumsneedwine]

If it's any reassurance most Unis state they don't look at AS levels at all, good or bad. So shouldn't make a difference. Surprised she can't start an EPQ at this point in year 12 - they are not due until May 2021 for her ! It's just a good way to research a medical topic for interview.

[EvaHarknessRose]

Glad she's thinking like that. Remind her it's a marathon not a sprint and during 2 year of A Levels followed by however many years medical school followed by however many years doctoring she needs to remember to find time to have a life and enjoy it. That's what will make the career choice sustainable if she wants that route at all in two years.

[Lunchonawagon]

Yes she is in year 12. She’s now saying she wants to do maths the whole way but if she does decide to drop it she’s not sure about taking the AS (which I would like her to do) as if she doesn’t get an A it will look bad when applying to universities

[mumsneedwine]

Sorry bit confused now. You said she originally was going to do maths to AS not A level so I assumed she was in year 12 as v unusual to do AS at end of year 13. And if want to do full A level then a lot to learn in less than 2 terms ? It will look bad if she gets a B but her offer will be based on 3 A levels so will make no difference if she's already in year 13 as Unis will already have given her an offer. Hope that makes sense !

[moreturkeyforme]

Stop this madness !

This thread is going round in circles

[CmdrCressidaDuck]

I did 4 A-Levels in Chemistry, Biology, Maths and English, originally with the idea of doing medicine. I was able to do Maths A-Level in a year by joining the Further Maths track rather than doing an AS. Fwiw I loved it, got A* equivalent in all 4 and decided I loved English most of all of them and pursued it for my degree.

IMO it will come down to how able she is and what she most wants. If she is sure about medicine but uncertain about workload or might struggle to balance them all it would be more sensible to let one go.

[randomsabreuse]

Maths is definitely "useful" as a lot of the skills overlap with skills she will need in Chemistry and in a medicine degree. Especially statistics!

I'm way out of date but definitely felt that if you get it Maths is probably the least time consuming A-level because homework is much more finite than any other subject.

[Trewser]

I agree the epq gave dd a lower offer, it was great.

[Lunchonawagon]

mumsneedwine there’s no reason she couldn’t get an A- just the idea that if she didn’t it would give a bad impression
She can’t do the EPQ now as it it is too late to pick it up and the school doesn’t allow pupils to start it in year 13

[mumsneedwine]

She has a very good point. If not going to get an A then why bother ? She will have to declare it on UCAS form if she takes it. And Sheffield offered my DD AAB for medicine if she got an A in her EPQ so they are useful. Plus she could go on at interview about her topic at some length - v useful for the 'discuss a recent development' question.