[Opinion] Former Habs Girl - I would not send my kids to Haberdashers' Aske's, Elstree. Here's why.

[formerhabsgirl]

Hi everyone

I've been thinking things over and feel this is the best place I can give this opinion, so that any parents thinking about sending their child to Haberdashers' Aske's School for Girls in Elstree can see it from the eyes of someone who went there, and not just a school prospectus.

I went to Habs Girls from the age of 11 to 18 and left relatively recently. I went on to Oxford and graduated with a first. Last week, a friend's Mum asked my opinion on Habs, as a colleague was thinking about sending their daughter there. The opinions I give below are my own and in no way affiliated with the school’s.

My experience of Habs Girls was that it was awful for pastoral support. I went from a straight A* student to barely being able to hand in essays. A teacher in a senior position asked me to come to her office and proceeded to tell me that if her friends, who she told me were barristers/lawyers etc, could function and go to work, even though they had previously been suicidal, then I could finish my essays. I also am pretty sure (from diary entries and my own memory) that another kept a girl in the school, who had an eating disorder at the time, waiting outside her office for the whole day while there were school-wide celebrations occurring (I can't go into much more detail here, otherwise I might reveal more than I want to). She felt so ashamed and unhappy (the girl, not the teacher). In my memory (and I kept several diaries detailing the events, which I have since checked over to refresh things) she never asked me how I could have gone from a student with top grades to a student barely being able to function. All I remember is blame, blame, blame, and criticism when I tried to explain myself. Another teacher made fun of the fact that I used to apologise all the time for handing in work late, without asking me why this had suddenly started happening.

I had never a 'problem student.' In fact, I was made a prefect before I started being ill. However, when I experienced difficulties that not my fault, I was shouted at by one teacher in front of a year 8 class when I asked for a day-long essay extension due to illness. While I completely understand that everything is subjective, I clearly remember events like these happening and, from the perspective of someone in their twenties, who has gone through the system, I struggle to think how this could have been anything other than being… well, really bad at an aspect of one’s job.

I went to Oxford and achieved a first class degree. Those who know I went to Habs Girls (relatives etc.) have since asked me how I would credit Habs Girls in my overall success. My overwhelming memory of Habs Girls was how critical it was when it came to grades. My mother confirmed a memory I am about to share, as we both went along to a parent's evening in year 9 to talk about GCSE options - she remembered being as shocked as I was. The headmistress gave a speech, during which she was talking about whether to take 9 or 10 GCSEs. She said – and my mother remembers this too – “remember, it is far better to get 9 As rather than 9 As and 1 A.”

I believe that Habs Girls limits its students by promoting perfectionism. I cannot overstate this enough. There is such a pervading atmosphere of perfectionism in that place. I feel like a lot of parents act like it’s wonderful when students get straight As in GCSEs and A-Levels. They forget or choose to overlook the fact there is often a great deal of fear that is instilled in students about NOT getting those top grades. I have been around girls who have had panic attacks about the possibility of getting a B. There were girls in tears because they ‘only’ got 8 As and 1A during GCSE day. Girls who think they’re not good enough.

Why am I saying this now? Why did I not complain? Because I wasn’t old enough to realise that the teacher(s) I’ve mentioned had committed a gross error and had been (again, in my opinion) terrible at their jobs. I didn’t stand up to myself because mental health awareness was not present at Habs, and was not made a priority. I was a teenage girl, up against people who never asked me what was wrong, but instead told me off for not achieving. When I was at school, I believed that everything was my fault. I used to cry and cry and wonder how everything had gone so wrong. Having been to the place where ‘everyone wanted to go to’ – ie Oxbridge - and having had a great time there, I can now say wholeheartedly that the problem was not mine. They did not do enough to help me, and to help other girls who had similar or very different problems. Even when I was at freakin’ OXFORD, it was less of a perfectionist place than Habs Girls, in my experience.

I wonder, if anyone reads this, if I’ll get the response ‘it’s not for everyone: some people can hack it, and some people can’t.’ To this I would say: I got straight As and a first from Oxford. I never had any problem with Oxford whatsoever – compared to Habs Girls, it was honestly a lot easier to cope with, mentally. So I don’t really think the argument that ‘oh it was okay for her at uni because she had only one subject to concentrate on’ holds much weight, because I did well when I was doing a range of subjects. When I was at school (on paper only haha) I was arguably ‘the ideal Habs Girl’ – sporty, A grades across the board, Oxbridge – and yet I was treated really badly when I needed support and empathy. If I could hack Oxford and flourish in it, but me and several other girls had mental breakdowns/pulled all-nighters in part because of fear over not being ‘good enough…’ then I don’t think the fault really lies with my personality or how I handle things.

I want to give a shout out to the nice teachers who did go there – because there were some. There were some lovely and kind teachers who only wanted to help. They’re not being paid enough! But I’m afraid that several nice teachers do not reverse the really bad atmosphere that pervades the school. Even though I am sure some of the not-so-great teachers might have left, I would be very worried about sending anyone there, because of the ruthless perfectionism. If I have children of my own, then I would much rather prioritise students’ happiness than their grades. Habs Girls, in my opinion, is not worth the money. I am now considering going to counselling because I still have awful memories from that time. Sorry to be blunt, but I wish my parents had been able to see something like this before they'd decided to send me there.

Love

A Former Habs Girl

@Frankiestein402 I'd suggest that as recent as 20 years ago no schools (state or private) considered pastoral care / mental health? I have a daughter at habs and am aware that over the last 4-5 years there has been an increasing focus on pastoral care - (independent school inspectorate reports on both nlcs and habs some time back hinted at the need for more attention in this area.)

They've ALWAYS banged on about how great their pastoral care is. I was at the other one you mention (not Habs) in the early 1990s and they made a big fanfare of having an eating disorders counsellor. In truth it was the same as it is now - give lip service to pastoral care but really it's all about where they appear in the league tables.

@ificould I think (and hope and pray) that i would know if something was up with any of my children. Sometimes i joke that we think we do the very best we can for them but they will probably tell us we got it wrong whatever we do ;) "they fuck you up, your mum and dad" Larkin...Flippancy aside, what you say could be true of any child in any school...

True to an extent, but these schools I believe are especially destructive. There are things that make them different from more 'normal' schools - not least the very very long days.

From the age of just 11 I was out of the house every day (and in the social pressure cooker environment) from about 7.20am to 5.00pm. That's a long long time at that age. And then there's a ton of homework every day after that.

I now live near to several secondary schools and the kids live locally, are heading in to school at 8.30ish and are usually out by 3.15pm. That in and of itself means that they have more freedom from what is a very oppressive and overwhelming environment.

I wouldn't send my daughter (who is 8 at the moment) to a terrible failing school with a serious knife crime problem, but I wouldn't send her to NLCS/Habs either, even if money was no issue.

Like I said, academic pressure was never a problem for me - I sailed through that side of things - but everything else about it was hugely oppressive, pressured, suffocating, and damaging. Even if I can still decline Latin nouns now - it wasn't worth it.

I (sincerely) hope you're right about your daughter. I know that lots of girls do get through relatively unscathed and I hope she's one of them.

Not wishing to denigrate your experiences (they sound typical of the hothouses some parents are so keen on) - but you will probably benefit from something the state school middleclass child won't in the future - contacts. You will know other high achieving women because they went there, you'll be able to gain a foothold in some places because you went there/you have common ground, and you'll be instantly seen by some people as 'their sort of person' purely because you went there.

It's one of the reasons why private schools charge so much even when exam results aren't as outstanding - the access to contacts that can help from getting the first internship or work experience, all the way to the most senior position you'll ever hold.

@MitziK I have those sort of connections, exactly as you describe. It wasn't worth what I went through as a teenager. It wasn't worth still being anorexic and bulimic today, at nearly 40, and the health problems I've had for the past 25 years as a result.

OP

To me this is about the "what" (what is achieved) and "how" (exactly how it is done). (actually how I look at reviews at work). So in a school context, yes straight 9's looks good on paper - but if this is at the expense of someone's mental health that is extremely poor. Conversely, a child who has struggled getting mid range marks because of the support put in by dedicated staff could be viewed as excellent.

Sometimes I think people have a one dimensional view of results. I worked for a long time in a top consultancy firm and can hand on heart say that other skills are much more valuable in the long run than pure academics. The academics might open the door but it is the other skills (social and life skills) which offer you the seat at the table.

I went to a reasonable - not brilliant but definitely reasonable - comprehensive. And then onto Cambridge. So I guess from Op’s Point of view I was very lucky.

But I don’t think the Op really understands what a reasonable comprehensive actually is. Some lessons were pretty good - especially subjects that were set if you were a top set pupil (I was). We won’t discuss what it was like if you weren’t and had a vague desire to learn - not least because I don’t know - but not a lot of fun I suspect.

Lessons that weren’t set were not great though. There was a general aim of “teaching to the C” as the breadth of the class was so wide that it was pretty impossible to do more. If you wanted to get better than a C (it may have changed now - this was back in the 90s where grades were very much judged on A* - C) then you had to sort that for yourself. And school was surprisingly unhelpful in advising how to do this. I remember my parents taking me to a bookshop and us buying random textbooks as school wouldn’t tell us which boards we were taking for different subjects.

I was expected to sit next to and help a pupil with SEN for quite a lot of lessons a week.

A good 10% - 20% of lesson time was lost through general classroom disruption.

And in Years 10 and 11 I had an English teacher who had lost control of the class completely. My main memory of English lessons is ducking as lit (ie on fire) pieces of paper were thrown around the room and the teacher sat at her desk sobbing.

No pressure at all to succeed though - quite a lot of pressure to not succeed though - if you want to keep your friends anyway. I still do “ditsy cute blonde girl who has no idea whatsoever how she managed to get 96% on that test but who cares because I’m far more interested in what to wear on Saturday anyway” occasionally when I’m not thinking which is kind of awkward when I am supposed to be a finance professional.

As I say - this is a decent comprehensive. Others will have far worse tales.

Funnily enough both my parents could have written the Op’s post. They were both privately educated and genuinely thought they were doing the best thing for me by keeping me out of the private school system.

It's one of the reasons why private schools charge so much even when exam results aren't as outstanding - the access to contacts that can help from getting the first internship or work experience, all the way to the most senior position you'll ever hold.

Not my experience at all. I don’t have any contacts from school, I’ve not come across any former school friends professionally. It’s Habs, it’s not Eton.

My kids are at an outstanding middle class comprehensive, the careers of their parents and them and their friends own ambitions are identical to those of their friends at Habs / UCS / NLCS.

it's a hell of a lot tougher at state school, where kids are trying to set fire to the school on a regular basis
To the poster who wrote this, it just isn't true as a general statement.
I have nothing against independent schools at all having chosen lots of options along for the way for my gang but this notion that state schools are all lawless is utter rubbish!

You know the reason why private schools have fab results? They don't enter those who will get less than brilliant grades. I was ill during my GCSE years and my "best school in x" refused to enter me. My bloody brilliant parents fought that and I was entered and fucking nailed it.

I did get an awful lot from my school. But they also did a lot of damage. If it was a choice between my old school and a dreadful school then I'd probably go for my old school. A good comp and my old school? No contest, it's the comp.

it's a hell of a lot tougher at state school, where kids are trying to set fire to the school on a regular basis

Exactly. I hate this notion that state schools are full of bad behaviour, where kids don’t want to learn and it’s not cool to be clever and work hard. It’s so far from my experience. My child’s friends got a range of results, from 1 who got 9 9’s through to the ones who were delighted to pass most of them with the majority getting a straight run of 7’s and 8’s. All worked hard and got the best they could have achieved. The school and they took it extremely seriously and lessons were taught to the highest level. Quite frankly, the results confirmed to me that you don’t need a Habs education to get top grades, smart kids in high performing non selective state schools will get broadly the same results as their counterparts in selective private schools. That’s £100k in my pocket so far that i am delighted we didn’t spend.

Habs send their GCSE results out yesterday to parents and whilst they are undoubtedly outstanding it’s interesting they don’t differentiate between 8 and 9 and lumped them in together....perhaps they didn’t have as many 9’s as they’d have liked

The school has changed a lot in the last 7 years and I am sure you attended before this, there is such a large push now towards mental health and wellbeing of the students.

The school has a wellbeing centre not just a health centre, there is an enormous amount of tracking of mental health by the tutor teams, even through online learning. There are 2 councillors and a much larger pastoral team than there ever has been.

Is it normal for children in Year 7, in selective schools, to be so incredibly stressed out? Why do teachers in these schools think that it's "normal" for students to regularly cry in the Head of Year 7's office until July. Surely this is abnormal?
Does anyone have any suggestions as how best to advise my daughter to manage her time when she frequently doesn't get home until 5.30 or 6 pm, has 90 minutes of homework and needs to have a shower, eat supper and go to bed before midnight.
Please advise. We are getting desperate!

@MrsMultiTask

Is it normal for children in Year 7, in selective schools, to be so incredibly stressed out? Why do teachers in these schools think that it's "normal" for students to regularly cry in the Head of Year 7's office until July. Surely this is abnormal? Does anyone have any suggestions as how best to advise my daughter to manage her time when she frequently doesn't get home until 5.30 or 6 pm, has 90 minutes of homework and needs to have a shower, eat supper and go to bed before midnight. Please advise. We are getting desperate!

Maybe consider whether this is the right school? Did you know about the length of the day and amount of homework when you chose it? If not then did you not ask or was it 'missold'?

(you might be better off starting your own thread)

@MrsMultiTask in the nicest possible way how do you think these schools get those stellar results they advertise? It is pound of flesh I am afraid and some children cope and some don’t and end up with mental health issues.

My friend sent her DDs to Habs. The eldest DD did exceptionally well, went to Oxford and is now a lawyer. The youngest DD struggled, was bullied and ultimately ended up leaving and going to King Alfred’s.

Not everyone is suited to the culture at Habs.

@MrsMultiTask, start a separate thread. Some schools arrive this and the jump to secondary is enormous for 11 year olds who are exhausted, add in academic pressure and you have a toxic environment.

We moved one dc early on as realised it wasn't good for them. They are absolutely thriving at a different school that has a range of pupils with different abilities. They is also focus on the person and having fun!

It's even obvious when you meet the teachers as they are happy and clearly enjoy the school.

Don't hesitate to move your child if the school isn't right

@MrsMultiTask Is this at Habs? My daughter is currently in Year 7 at an independent (although not Habs) and what you describe is definitely not normal. Her days are long (leaves house at 7:30, finishes school at 4:30, goes horse riding after school every day and home by about 7pm, then dinner and homework) and they get a lot of homework and constant assessments, but she really likes secondary school and it's a very friendly environment, even though she's far from being academically gifted. They also get a long lunch break (1.25 hours) and get to wander on the lovely school campus

Old Habs girl here (now 40). Habs was absolutely awful for me. My sister and I still sit and discuss it. No contacts or education are worth sacrificing wellbeing, health, and being under suck a chronic stress response. It was a toxic environment and so many girls struggled so much on the inside whilst getting their amazing grades. It was like the Hunger Games. I would never send my kids there.

I know this is an old thread but it had so much resonance for me I wanted to comment. Probably nobody will read this! So writing is therapy, I've only ever spoken of this to my husband.

I was at Habs (decades ago), very good grades, anorexic like all my friends (and it felt like almost all in my year, certainly almost all the 20 or so Oxbridge set). Begged to be allowed to leave (parents said 'you have a scholarship to the best school in the country, you can't leave, we can't afford another school'). Dropped out of school entirely for months. Managed to get into Cambridge despite awful quality of Habs teaching in maths, skipping most lessons for years (because I was ignored and bored) and severe bulimia - couldn't cope with 'of course you'll get in' when I was struggling and could see my teachers also couldn't do the entrance papers. Was sent to 'the boys' school' for extra Cambridge entrance maths but it seemed my role was to be humiliated to make the boys feel better, so I quit that in a rare moment standing up for myself. Anorexia almost ended my Cambridge career but determination, perhaps learned at Habs, pulled me out of that in the end, after years. Cambridge was easier than Habs.

When I met up with my best friend (deputy head girl) 10 years after leaving school, the first thing her husband said to me was 'have you recovered from that awful school yet?'. I received a good education, but the cost was grim, for me and my family (my sister's story...). In the end I feel mostly I taught myself and I believe the local grammar school would have been better for me.

The anorexia and bulimia were so universal it should have been a scandal - teachers and pupils all knew but it wasn't talked about officially. The girls did try to support each other, it felt like 'us vs them' with the school authorities caring only about A grades.

Contacts? Not a chance, we'd rather forget.

I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I hope it has changed. I wouldn't trust a word they say about pastoral care. They tried to cover up our skeletons in their closets. Literally. Not all of us survived, I still think of those who didn't make it. What a waste it was of smart, talented, beautiful girls.

I was there in the 90s. The school destroyed me. I'm still dealing with the fallout.

Wow, this was a fascinating read. I was there in the 90s. Things clearly haven’t changed much. I remember being away when the GCSE results came out and having to call the headmistress to get mine. She said “I’m afraid you didn’t get any A stars, just 9 A’s”. What a failure I was.

I've no knowledge of Habs girls but a teacher of my acquaintance who was vastly experienced (40+ years and head of 2 schools) assured me Habs boys was one of the worst they had dealt with in terms of rigidity, ignoring outside specialist input and (lack of) support for neurodiversity/SEN.