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Secondary education

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Massive decline in English A-level take-up thanks to Gove reforms

250 replies

noblegiraffe · 07/07/2019 20:46

One for @piggywaspushed who warned of this.

Take-up of English A-levels has declined massively since 2016. There has also been a decrease in the take-up of Maths and Further Maths A-levels after years of steady increases (and the country cannot afford this).

Good job everyone. Well done.

Full figures here: assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/803906/Provisional_entries_for_GCSE__AS_and_A_level_summer_2019_exam_series.pdf

Massive decline in English A-level take-up thanks to Gove reforms
OP posts:
Piggywaspushed · 09/07/2019 18:41

I have just been reading about the degree. My DS2 has woeful IT skills so maybe not for him. The innovation bit of the description is so jargon heavy! The only bit I really understood was 'brainstorming'!

IdaBWells · 09/07/2019 19:01

We are in the US. My eldest dd just got into the most competitive university in our state and I personally believe her commitment to German had a lot to do with it. She doesn't have to declare a major yet but has already decided she wants to double major: German plus something else. Noone is learning German these days in the US or UK despite it being the language spoken most as a first language in Europe and second after English in having the most academic papers in STEM. It is incredibly useful in business, science and the arts but is virtually ignored in the English speaking world.

My dd was a strong all-rounder but so are so many students applying to her uni. I think German put her over the top because it is becoming so unusual.

Comefromaway · 09/07/2019 19:11

Piggy - on ds’s Lang course one of the papers is definitely an analysis of an unseen fiction text. (paper 1 reading)

Kazzyhoward · 09/07/2019 19:22

I am really confused by a couple of the accounts of GCSE Eng and Lit . There are no short stories in the spec that I know of and PP mentions lit texts in Lang which hasn't been the case for years.

Maybe depends on the exam board. My son certainly had fiction/poetry in his Eng Lang exam last year. But the school used a weird exam board - all other subjects were Edexcel or AQA but English was something completely different. I'll have to ask him to remind me what it was.

Piggywaspushed · 09/07/2019 19:25

Are you positive this isn't IGCSE kazzy?

There are fiction extracts in the comprehension papers but no taught fiction. I'll scout around and see what I can find but that is definitely not Eduqas either. And pretty sure not OCR.

Piggywaspushed · 09/07/2019 19:26

Yes, unseen fiction comefrom. Paper 1. I don't think of it as fiction as such : it's comprehension. Like what we used to do in them olden days!

Comefromaway · 09/07/2019 19:35

I think the kids definitely see it as yet more fiction, especially the 19c stuff.

Piggywaspushed · 09/07/2019 19:39

It's 50 % a test of reading though, so here has to be SOMETHING to read! The 19 Century is non fiction. The fiction is 20th century (although usually very stuffy). The Eng Lang is nothing like either Lit or Lang A Level. It is no prep for either. It is dull, on the whole. But I have never heard students say it has put them off Eng Lit A Level.

Piggywaspushed · 09/07/2019 19:40

kazzy no poetry in Eduqas/ Edexcel/ OCR/ AQA. Running out of ideas!

CassianAndor · 09/07/2019 19:42

piggy not at all, Your explained to perfectly now. I didn’t pick up the sarcasm earlier so stumbled a bit on that.

I don’t know much about secondary education (DD still at primary) but I do think humanities-based degrees have taken a big hit with tuition fees. I did a very obscure history degree that didn’t lead anywhere in particular (certainly didn’t lead me into earning much at all) and if that comes with a hefty price tag and no particular earning potential I can see why, in the current climate, people might not go for it.

Another thought - I did A levels in the late 80s. There were a lot of Asian (Indian) girls at my school (private, boarding). All bar one did sciences at A level and one girl did actually come out and say it - the cultural assumption was that you only did humanities if you were too stupid to do science. As more and more 2nd and 3rd generation students go to uni, might this attitude prevail?

Danglingmod · 09/07/2019 19:49

Edexcel has a short story anthology as an option for 19th century (lit paper), doesn't it?

Piggywaspushed · 09/07/2019 19:50

It might do? I think AQA does too. I am surprised Govey let that through.

Fifthtimelucky · 09/07/2019 19:52

The tuition fee point is interesting. If I remember rightly Bristol university had to reveal in response to an FOI request, the true cost of tuition in different subjects.

My recollection is that arts students were subsiding STEM students because arts degrees cost less than £9,000 a year to provide and STEM degrees cost much more.

CassianAndor · 09/07/2019 20:17

Fifth which makes complete sense, as there’s obvious very little if any equipment that the uni needs to provide to a history or English student. Not even staff costs - in my first year I had a sum total of 5 hours of lectures/tutorials a week, and I don’t think it ever went above 10. Compare to my friends doing science of engineering, who were 9-5 every day and loads of specialist kit provided.

TapasForTwo · 09/07/2019 20:59

"in my first year I had a sum total of 5 hours of lectures/tutorials a week, and I don’t think it ever went above 10. Compare to my friends doing science of engineering, who were 9-5 every day and loads of specialist kit provided."

I suspect the number of contact hours and amount of practical work is probably why many science students think that humanities degrees are less rigorous.

DD's boyfriend is doing history, and hardly turned up to any seminars for one topic because he found it boring. DD will be doing biomedical science and will need the building blocks from each lecture/seminar to be able to understand subsequent topics, so missing a block of lectures and seminars will be disastrous for her. I don't think that going to the library to read up about a missed topic will work for her.

CassianAndor · 09/07/2019 21:49

I don’t know, being left to your own devices to study or not study is quite a challlenge and in fact I nearly dropped out after a term of it. After school, where your day was so timetabled, with the odd free period, to be left to sort yourself out was a big challenge, for me at any rate. It’s a completely different kind of learning.

Fifthtimelucky · 09/07/2019 22:21

I don't agree that arts degrees are necessarily less rigorous, but I do think that in general they provide less value for money!

TapasForTwo · 09/07/2019 22:30

I'm sure they aren't less rigorous, and I'm not saying that they are, but the perception that they are still exists, especially when your science student has several 9 o'clock starts and their arts student friends are still in bed at lunchtime.

ErrolTheDragon · 09/07/2019 22:58

Is the rigour of arts degrees liable to be quite variable between institutions? Correct me if I'm wrong, but afaik there isn't anything akin to the external accreditation that exists for many STEM and 'vocational' degrees.

Comefromaway · 09/07/2019 23:19

The arts degree dh teaches on has between 20-30 contact hours per week.

Bimkom · 09/07/2019 23:59

I am not sure, to go back on something that piggywaspushed said, that it is all about not reading.
I have two readers - and my younger one (finishing Year 8) is more likely to be found with her head in a book than not (as in, I come in and she hasn't done anything she is supposed to, because the first thing she did on getting home from school was hit the sofa with a book). She can easily spend most of the weekend reading. Yes she does use her phone to talk to her friends and play games, but there is a lot of reading going on. And randomly at least some sort of children's classics are picked up - I came in to find her reading Peter Pan yesterday, we missed it at an earlier stage. And she borrowed a version of Les Mis from the library last week. She also does what I used to do, which is read at every level (reread the most basic children's books up to whatever is lying around, including books being read by adults).
And yet I cannot see her doing A Level English - because while she generally scores reasonably highly on the creative writing, and has a good knowledge of vocabulary - she bombs the PEE paragraphs - just really struggles to get what they want from her, finds them formulatic, and has been put in set 3 English as a result (she is set one Maths & Science). So she concludes that she is "bad" at English and "good at STEM.
My older one, just finishing his GCSEs, whilst also a reader, has tended to focus on young adult fiction (which I loathe as a major component of the diet). The GCSEs in combination with some of my own reading and those of his friends has in fact pushed him into reading more widely and deeply, and he discovered that he loved the poetry they did (War & Conflict) - or at least most of them, and feels that he now has some idea of what makes for better literature (he has just gone and tidied up his room post GCSEs and cleared out the young adult fiction to make room for other things). But as he is taking A levels in STEM subjects, he is now feeling he needs to "read around" non fiction STEM related books in preparation for university. Although he ended up enjoying the English literature he was presented with, he did not enjoy the quote memorising, and he found it much easier to get top marks in STEM. If you really, really knew your subject and studied hard he felt you had a high probability of good marks in STEM. In English the marking always felt uncertain, who knows whether what you said would appeal, and he also struggled all the way through with PEE paragraphs and the "right" way to write an essay to get the marks wanted. For somebody who has some issue with spelling (he spells like a dyslexic, just doesn't read like one, and we spent much of primary school battling with the spelling, to limited avail), the SPAG marks were a killer. So while he doesn't need to be able to spell to read widely, he does to consider taking it as a subject. So while he thinks he is going to miss it, there is no way he could consider it for A level.

Piggywaspushed · 10/07/2019 07:08

It isn't all about reading, no (although your DSc are definitely not typical!).

You have also picked up on what I also said upthread about the exam focused teaching style and PEE paragraphs etc. That said, I am pretty sure science and maths are also exam obsessed! But perhaps incessant tests are more accepted by DCs in those subjects.

I think the rhetoric about the 'worth' of degrees comes from parents, not 15yos starting to choose A Levels. And, actually, parents sometimes push for Eng Lit.

Piggywaspushed · 10/07/2019 07:10

On a side note the AQA examiners' report actually cautioned against overuse of PEE paragraphs. I hate them!!

Bimkom · 10/07/2019 07:37

I guess I think what I was saying was that in an exam obsessed climate, in STEM it is easier for reasonably bright DC to work out how to meet those exam demands and do very well, while much more difficult for English. That is, given that the requirements are now about hoop jumping, rather than education, where the hoops are positioned seems much clearer for STEM, and they seem more stable, whereas with English one is attempting to jump through more of a moving hoop, increasing the difficulty. Once the DC understand that hoop jumping successfully is what is required of them, they are are logically choosing the hoops that feel the most stable to jump through.

Piggywaspushed · 10/07/2019 07:43

Yeah, don't worry ; I get you! I find it depressing, though ....

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