Massive decline in English A-level take-up thanks to Gove reforms

[noblegiraffe]

One for @piggywaspushed who warned of this.

Take-up of English A-levels has declined massively since 2016. There has also been a decrease in the take-up of Maths and Further Maths A-levels after years of steady increases (and the country cannot afford this).

Good job everyone. Well done.

Full figures here: assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/803906/Provisional_entries_for_GCSE__AS_and_A_level_summer_2019_exam_series.pdf

I think technology and engineering companies can be absolutely male dominated and pretty unpleasant for women to work in so its not something I'd encourage my dds to do tbh.

All very well studying the a levels in the comforting confines of an excellent academic girls school,.a shock when you start work and realise how tough it is.

So that’s the answer then noble. Revert to a two tier English Lit GCSE. Hard texts vs accessible texts. I’m always worried when DC just won’t make an effort with texts such as poetry that might challenge them. Does everything have to be dumbed down to accommodate whims? Or should young people have a go and challenge themselves more? I don’t think memorising texts and excerpts helps either. Understanding a text and arguing for a point of view is not all about memory. It’s more nuanced than that and finding your way around a text is a valuable tool for university and a job.

I completely agree that Stem grads need to explain concepts to others. DH can find engineering grads hopeless at this. Universities don’t have real employment situations for young people and they can get a first but be useless at the job when it comes to dealing with clients and work colleagues. Let alone writing accurately.

But there are businesses which have been ruined by having 'amateur' management. DH had the misfortune to work in a business headed by an impressive sounding Cambridge literature grad who knew fuck all chemistry - didn't know what he didn't know - and therefore made disastrous decisions. He's come across many city 'analysts' totally unqualified to understand science-based companies. And then there's politicians...

This is the exact point that has been hammered home during various Uni open day subject talks in Maths and Physics which we've been to with our son. Time and time again, the lecturer has been highlighting the most of the graduates in Maths and/or Physics don't end up in specifically scientific jobs - in fact, it seems most end up in accountancy, law, city banking, not actually doing much in the way of advanced Maths nor science - it's their background knowledge of Maths and science that is attractive to the employer as they have clients heavily involved in science, so they prefer an auditor checking "the books" of a high tech company to have an understanding of what the company is actually doing, even though the core job itself is ticking & bashing.

My DH has several women engineers but they are consultants. In some areas of work there might be a challenge but the vast majority of engineering sectors are welcoming to women and they hold senior positions so you really need to understand the whole picture before you put girls off doing anything Fibbke. You are very out of date.

Yes, I understand the whole picture! There are too many engineering grads and it isn't particularly welcoming to women in many sectors.

There has of course been great criticisms of the banks during the crash who had many Stem grads but no understanding of the human element of banking. The truth is you need humanities and stem grads to be successful and all of them will need training!

Good STEM employers are actively trying to address recruitment and retention of talented women. There are doubtless some companies stuck in the past, and specific fields which might be difficult -I can't imagine equality hitting oil rigs any time soon, to take an extreme example. But there's plenty of good opportunities for women.

So that’s the answer then noble. Revert to a two tier English Lit GCSE. Hard texts vs accessible texts. I’m always worried when DC just won’t make an effort with texts such as poetry that might challenge them. Does everything have to be dumbed down to accommodate whims? Or should young people have a go and challenge themselves more?

Based only on my own son's experience, his loss of interest and ultimate low GCSE grade (he got 9s in everything else) was down to the secondary school and poor teaching.

In primary, he read everything, always reading a book, we'd take him to the library weekly, he'd do all the reading challenges, etc. Raced through the primary school reading scheme. When he started secondary, their was a chasm between what he'd previously been exposed to and what the school gave him - it literally sucked the joy out of reading for him. He had the same "stuck in his ways" teacher for 4 out of the 5 years who should have been pensioned off years earlier.

There was no explanation of the books they studied - no joy brought into the subject. No context given. Right was right from the start of year 7, no transition at all. End of year 6 and he was reading Roald Dahl, start of year 7 and it was classics. And if there's one thing worse than learning classics in year 7, it's being taught by on "old school" teacher with as much enthusiasm as a dead dog!

Basically, his school sucked out all the joy of reading we'd built up with him during primary years. He's never read a book "for fun" for 6 years now as he's totally turned off. We can only hope that at some stage he finds books that he can learn to love again.

Fibbke: no one in their right mind thinks there are too many engineering grads??? Since when? Employees come (or came) from all over the world to work here and were better than our grads. We don’t have too many: we don’t have many that are good enough!

What evidence do you have that engineering isn’t welcoming to women? In what sectors? Employers offer part time working, mentoring, networking and lots of family friendly policies for all staff. I’m struggling to think why the engineering sector is worse than say, law, where ludicrous hours are the norm. Or finance where it’s similar. Girls need to be encouraged to do what they want and I see no evidence of them not being welcomed.

It must be partly cultural here as engineering is a much more popular choice for women in Sweden (i have family there)

Can he not read what he wants in his own time? I agree that this style of teaching isn’t helpful but you can keep enthusiasm for anything going outside school. It’s called a hobby.

Well Fibbke you cannot push women into careers they don’t want but saying engineering isn’t welcoming is ridiculous. I think it’s true to say it suits some people better than others but it can be a great choice for someone who enjoys stem but is also highly literate.

I did English lit, French and Spanish A levels. I then did a computer science degree.
You don't need stem A levels to have a career in science and tech.
I was always able to use the arts and languages background on my CV as a bonus to stand out as a candidate who has more to offer than a logic brain. Employers were always intrigued.

I'm inclined to think that there should be far more adoption of IB type qualifications as an alternative to A levels.

A levels are great for the kids who know what they want to do, and who may be extremely gifted in one field but not in others. Even there, wouldn't it be good to have non-examined additional options for breadth? ... go and see good theatre and discuss it, for instance. (English lit gcse, unreformed version, completely turned DD off from a former delight in poetry and theatre. )

But for 'generalists' a broader IB type of qualification would probably be better. A levels are too few subjects for many, and perpetuate the 'two cultures' phenomenon which is really damaging.

My dds school has just dropped the IB. They now encourage 3 a levels and breadth in the form of d of e, epq and the huge number of clubs and societies that they offer. Plus volunteering in the community which had had a huge push over the last few years.

Just as an aside, do we have evidence that management and business grads actually have good management skills?

I do worry about some of the science lovers I teach who profess a desire to pursue medical careers and they have zero empathy or communication skills. But are very very good at science and maths. I think that is a misspelling of a medical degree and its demands, perhaps?

Or mis-selling even . Spellchecker irony!!

tumble took the words out of my mouth. The future economy isn't necessarily dependant on what is studied at A Level.

I am sure Comp Sci specialists have to reteach everything that is taught at school anyway by the time those students make it into the sector.

Piggy - that's one of the reasons why med school admissions depend so much in interview and relevant experience. The offers are generally not quite as high in terms of A level grades as top maths, engineering and science degrees.

However, there is some evidence that some types of doctor - in particular surgeons - may benefit from 'psychopathic' traits - hard rationalism and willingness to act rather than empathy and bedside manner.

Just as an aside, do we have evidence that management and business grads actually have good management skills?

My experience is that business & management graduates are often just very good administrators - they know their way around the form-shuffling, accounting, and box-ticking side of management, but not so good at the actual people skills, business development, entreprenneurship sides of things. I've often thought they'd make brilliant PAs and secretaries to directors but not make particularly good directors themselves. That's just my own experience. Most of the genuinely brilliant business managers/entreprenneurs I've come across either don't have a degree at all or have an irrelevant degree.

I am sure Comp Sci specialists have to reteach everything that is taught at school anyway by the time those students make it into the sector.

Because Southampton comp sci and electronics are in the same department, we attended an open day subject talk in which the comp sci admissions tutor said that it absolutely didn't matter whether applicants had done comp sci a level ... they'd work on getting rid of the bad habits thus acquired in the first term.
But top grades in maths were absolutely required, and I doubt you'll find many good comp sci courses nowadays that don't have that as a requirement. Similarly engineering. The techniques taught at A level are basic 'literacy' for such courses.

That's not to say there aren't software-related degrees and careers possible for non mathematicians. Coding in some languages is easy, it's knowing what to write that's key in many applications.

That's not to say there aren't software-related degrees and careers possible for non mathematicians. Coding in some languages is easy, it's knowing what to write that's key in many applications.

My son hates the actual coding which has always put him off computer science, but after talking to staff/students at a couple of Uni open days, they both said that coding was actually a very small part - their degrees were all about data analysis, systems design, data interpretation, cyber security, etc - they were basically saying that with the jobs they're aiming at, you'd get someone else to do the coding for you, which really changed my son's perception.

Coming back to the future economic value of humanity degrees, I noticed recently that Bristol offer 4 year MArts in History, Theatre and several other disciplines “With Innovation”
perhaps this is a step on the way way to ensure the skills and values from humanities degrees are properly recognised and used in future careers.

From their website;
The innovators of the 21st century will bring together arts, science, engineering, humanities and enterprise to deliver innovative products, services and ways of living. They will be team players with a breadth of skills and qualities that enable them to work across specialisms and cultures.

This course combines in-depth subject specialism in history with interdisciplinary breadth, creative teamwork and entrepreneurial skills. Alongside your history studies, you will apply your subject knowledge by translating ideas into plans for digital and creative enterprises, both social and commercial.

The course will equip you for reading history and carrying out historical research. You will be supported in 'doing' history through a mix of core units, a wide choice of primary source-based optional units and substantial pieces of independent research.

You will come together with students from other innovation disciplines, such as anthropology, to learn and apply design and systems thinking to digital and creative ideas. You will work in transdisciplinary teams to put these ideas into practice, ultimately creating new ventures together.

That sounds really interesting! Wonder how far the 4 year bit might put those off who don't want to extend debt etc.