Upset for my nephew and angry with my sister

[BretonLeopard]

I am very close to my nephew (don't have children of my own) and my sister. When she applied for secondary schools, we went to look at two schools - both in the catchment area but the first choice (A)always oversubscribed and DN is not from the feeder school. His primary is a very good Catholic school. Her second choice (B) is closest to his home but again, his primary is not the feeder school. Another choice would have been the local Catholic School (C) (I work at this school but she decided for various reasons not to send him here). His school is the feeder primary to this school.

This morning, my sister messaged to say that she is on the waiting list for school A. The offer she has is for a different school (D) which is a terrible school. I couldn't; understand this, as her second choice (B) was so near.

She has since told me this morning that she only put down school A and did not put down any other choices.

I am absolutely devastated for my nephew and livid with my sister. I think she has been completely reckless and I fear there is nothing she can do.

Does anyone have any advice?

How exactly do the middle class game the system? I know a few people who'd be very grateful for that information.

LAs could get rid of the one school choice by not accepting an online form unless more than one school is selected, that's got to be a fairly simple fix which would eliminate that problem in an instant.

I couldn't believe when I did this last year (DC now Y7) how many highly educated (MC) parents round here didn't quite get it . . . If their DC had done well in an 'aptitude' or 'scholarship' test (this is London where such things abound) they thought they had to put that school in first place (out of 6) otherwise they would lose any chance of place and scholarship. They simply did not believe me when I tried to explain the school won't know which position you have placed them in and you'll still get your scholarship place if it's your highest placed offer . . . You can have a speculative attempt at a school you'd like even more, without endangering it; you have 6 spaces on the form precisely so that you've room for a couple of unlikely longshots!
London may be particularly complex but my impression was that the majority of parents end up applying without fully understanding . . . Some of course get lucky anyway.

“You simply put down 3 schools, in order of preference, that you would like your child to attend if the spaces are availabl“
Well, it’s not quite as simple as that- for example- what if you put 3 schools you have no realistic chance of getting in to?

Just overheard that the parents of three year 6 children haven't done their applications yet or have messed up in some way and only realised now; they've been told to act quickly but seemed to think the primary school staff could work miracles and sort it all out for them.

@bertrandRussell exactly, it doesn't help where people say just choose three schools and put them in preference order. We've got a few locally that fill up within catchment area so out of areas have no chance but still put it down

Punta, it won’t make any difference whether your sister accepts now or 20 mins before the deadline for acceptance. No waiting list places will be offered until after the acceptance date and they re-shuffle all the lists.

You can go on as many waiting lists as you like.

What a stupid woman. I used all 6 choices.

You are a great aunty, Punta.

I think a lot of the problem comes from people using the word 'choices'. You are not making a choice - you are expressing a preference. And yes, I guess it's not that simple in that it does make sense to include a 'banker' school which might not really be in your top three preferred schools - but on the other hand, surely it's not that complicated to understand that if you only put down three oversubscribed schools that you don't live very near, there's a high chance you won't get into any of them of them?

Can I go slightly off at a tangent and ask why would you get a scholarship for a state school?

When my kids' years went through this, everyone who failed to get Into the local comp and went on a waiting list, ended up with a place. Mainly due to people with places achieving success on the waiting list for other schools, or opting for faith schools or private schools. There'll be a lot of movement between now and the summer.

It’s not that complicated, but there’s a hell of a lot of misinformation about, often peddled by people who should know better (looking at you, headteachers).

It would be great if there was some way it could be made that you couldn’t submit your form without your nearest banker being included somewhere. Obviously would never work in reality (Black holes where there is no clear banker, can’t guarentee admission even to the most likely school, people who have more than one realistic option somewhere etc.), but would go a long way to help, I think!

“Can I go slightly off at a tangent and ask why would you get a scholarship for a state school?”

Some schools offer a number of places based on particular aptitude. There is a limit to the number of these places they are allowed to award, and they are often music but I have seen sport and language, too.

For state schools it has to be ‘aptitude’ not ‘achieved’ to give everyone a fair chance whether or not they have been able to have music lessons, for example.

The places may come with offer of free music lessons etc.

Sorry, punta, that was aimed more at others than you! I feel very sorry for your sister, even though she's been silly. I know someone IRL who has done something similar and lost out on a place, and I feel v sorry for them too. With the criticism of schools, though, I do think it's sometimes that parents misunderstand what we say, rather than that we say the wrong thing (not always!). I'm in admissions, and my mantra at open days is always "list your three schools in the order that you truly prefer them". But I do also specifically tell people to put us first (only if they ask further questions about how to secure a place), because it's true! We have sometimes had cases where parents have preferred our school, but put their nearer school first because they want to make sure they've got a definite place somewhere, so put us second, and are then disappointed that they are given their local school and not us - because they haven't understood the preference system. So I will say to parents - if we are your first choice then put us first, but include your local school second or third. That's not game-playing, it's just how the system works - but it's possible that some parents infer from that that there is some game to be played around first/second etc, or infer that the schools know where they've put them, however much we explicitly tell them that that's not the case. If there's a clearer way of explaining it then I would genuinely love to hear it!

I can never understand why (barring faith schools and selective grammar schools) "Some schools offer a number of places based on particular aptitude." That being the case, it's a form of selection - aptitude or no aptitude - which again I don't understand why it is allowed in the first place.

It is totally not justified to call OP's sister "stupid". Ignorant, maybe, and even that I use the word advisedly. I've in the past and even presently tried to advise acquaintances of the comp!ex issues and difficulties of secondary transfer and to prepare in good time, i.e. many years ahead and from the body language and attitude I get in return, I knew these people still "don't get it" and often times I have them back asking for advice when it's all over and too late.

I’m sorry OP for your DN and hope it works out. You sound like a lovely aunt. I hope you don’t mind, I have a question for another PP in relation to what they said upthread.

@HotpotLawyer is that definitely the case, that offers from waiting list schools aren’t made until after the acceptance deadline? What if someone rejects their offer before the deadline- does county not act on that (ie offer to someone else where that school was a higher preference) straight away?

I ask because we’re in the (enviable) position of being very happy with either of our top two preferences. We were offered the second (as expected). I will of course accept that offer. But the offer email said, in bold text, that 1. We would automatically be on the continuing interest list for our first preference school and 2. To tell them IMMEDIATELY if we wanted to come off it because if we are offered the higher pref school our offer for the other school will automatically be cancelled. No mention of things not happening until after acceptance deadline - although they mention continuing interest ‘runs’.

So I had thought good, decision made, everyone happy. And now it seems we still have a decision to make - it would be good to know if it has to be immediate or if we have a bit of breathing space. Thanks.

niceberg Actually, I couldn’t say for definite what happens in your LA and in that circumstance.

So in your shoes I would check with them on Monday morning, or, if you do decide you want to stick with the allocated space, do as they say.

In all my years of taking part in and observing secondary transfer I have never known waiting list places be allocated before the acceptance deadline, but I’m not a professional in the system or knowledgable about the whole country.

I only put down one school and I got it. However there is only one secondary school in town. I already have 2 children there. Historically everyone who wants a place gets a place. So I wasn’t actually being stupid by only putting one school nor was I trying to play the system 🙂

Bertrsnd I don’t think it works like that at all!

The computer sweeps everyone up in the order in which they meet the criteria, irrespective of where the school is named in the list.

So yes, a second place applicant will be swept up quicker than a first choice applicant who lives further away.

And this continues at waiting list stage, since wait lists are also held in order of how you meet the criteria.