Things you wished you had known about the 11 plus process

[Goposie]

For me, that the numbers applying are crazy and the sheer odds stacked against getting in.

All my children got into grammars. All SIL’s children didn’t. SIL hates the grammar system.

Funny that 😁

Do your SIL's children have access to a school with the same %PP and %SEN as the grammar school?

If not, why do you think she should not resent a school system which actively funnels the most challenging children with the greatest needs into one part of the system?

Surely any right-thinking person would resent the unfair distribution of challenging children with the greatest needs to the schools already regarded as 'second best'?

Not really Birthday - thats exactly the point. Those whose kids get in think its fab.

Around here theres not enough places for all high ability kids. So talk of it "suiting" some kids may be the case but only some of those kids will get in. Of course those who dont wont be impressed.

Thats part of the problem. Kids arent clearly cut "grammar" or "sec mod" material at 11.

cantkeepawayforever Her kids don’t bother going anyway so no matter!

Am I correct in presuming the grammar supporters would be happy for their kids to attend a secondary modern (after failing by a couple of marks)? You can't have one without the other. The grammar school creates the secondary modern.

Not in our area it doesn't.

There are a fair few comps and primary schools with unfair representations of needy kids but we'll ignore that and focus on the miniscule numbers of grammars shall we.

That it existed!

unfair representations of needy kids

'Unfair' would mean 'unrepresentative of its effective catchment'. Do you mean that, or do you mean 'there are schools in areas with different socioeconomic profiles who have intakes that represent those areas fairly, but are different from one another'?

In my utopia, all schools would have to take the same (averaged over a fair-sized area e.g. large town or small city) % of PP and SEN children - sop whether they were selective by ability, income, faith or simply the nature of their postcode, they would have to take e.g. 12% FSM, 5% PP not on FSM, 15% SEN or whatever the local figures were.

But even in the real world, 'unfair' would mean that a school was somehow 'rigging' its intake to be significantly different from the profile of its effective catchment (a selective school obviously does this overtly, while e.g. schools that 'discourage' applicants with SEN tend to be more covert, and faith is a useful proxy for 'non-chaotic families who care enough about education to collect evidence')

The grammar school creates the secondary modern.

No it really doesn't. It did 50 years ago, but in lots of areas it doesn't.

In our own area, the comps sit happily alongside a small number of grammars. The comps are certainly not of that old "sec mod" mould. The 11+ isn't compulsory. There are so few pupils who go to the grammars, that it couldn't possibly have any statistically significant affect on the comps in the same catchment. At the school my son goes to, their annual intake from the catchment area is only 120 - the total of the catchment is around 2,000. The far bigger influence are the two huge faith schools whose combined intake is around 500 per year!

And how are you going to make the teachers all the same 🙄 ?

Start of with the same % of everything and some teachers will still be better than others and get better results.

What are you going to do then? Sack them because it’s not fair?!

Why the need for a different school? Are the 121st and 122nd students quantifiably different?

In wholly selective areas, the class and privilege division. Between grammars and non grammars is stark. There is an argument for the super selective-the schools for the top 5%- but there really is no argument for the traditional grammar/ secondary modern system. There may have been in the past where very broadly, private schools provided professionals, grammars upper and middle management and secondary moderns foremen and factory and manual workers. But our society doesn’t work that way any more.

In wholly selective areas

Which is where I agree - the wholly selective areas are an abomination. But that's completely different from all the areas which aren't.

Why the need for a different school?

Why the need for faith schools? Why the needs for arts/drama/sports schools?

“Why the need for faith schools? Why the needs for arts/drama/sports schools?”
You seem to be assuming that everyone thinks faith schools are a good idea! And that there are lots of state arts/drama/sports schools...

That it probably doesn't matter as much as you think it does in the end. Kids get to good universities from the other schools.

You seem to be assuming that everyone thinks faith schools are a good idea! And that there are lots of state arts/drama/sports schools...

So why aren't there so many people always banging on in threads like this against those too?? Or is it just that people like selection on their terms that benefit them.

In our area, the faith schools have a far larger intake than the tiny grammars, but you never hear a peep from people against them.

It’s all about choice, work ethic and intelligence.

There has to be a line somewhere. That’s life. Someone gets the job, someone doesn’t. Grammars cater for the top percent, you don’t have to go but you shouldn’t take the choice away from others. They aren’t taking the choice away from you, your kids can take the exam if they want to.

“So why aren't there so many people always banging on in threads like this against those too?? Or is it just that people like selection on their terms that benefit them.“

You obviously haven’t come across my many rants on the subject of faith schools, then! And I am by no means alone.

And what are the arts/music/ sport schools you’re talking about?

In wholly selective areas, the class and privilege division between grammars and non grammars is stark.

To be fair, it is in non-wholly selective areas with a few grammars, too.

Gloucestershire is an often-cited example:
%PP (Ever6) for Grammars: 1.6 - 6.7%, against a national average of 26.8%

%PP (Ever6) for non-Grammars (effectively some secondary moderns where there are several grammars in the two / city and some comprehensives with a small number of high attainers missing): : 7.6 % - 52.7%

So there's no overlap - no grammars have a higher proportion of children from disadvantaged backgrounds than even the leafiest of leafy comprehensives.

If you look in more restricted areas, to make the comparison fairer, the difference becomes even more stark:

Gloucester's non-grammars: 24.5% - 52.7%
Gloucester's grammars: 3.9% - 6.7%
(Highest grammar over 3.5x lower than lowest non-grammar, a faith school by the look of it)

Stroud's non grammars: 10.7% - 29.5%
Stroud's grammars: 3.6-4%
(Highest grammar over 2.5 x lower than lowest non-grammar)

Cheltenham's non-grammars: 7.6 - 44.7%
Cheltenham's grammar: 1.6%
(Grammar over 4.5 x lower than lowest non-grammar, a comprehensive that seems to be a byword on MN for leafiness)

It’s all about choice, work ethic and intelligence.

The data actually shows, however, that it is also very much about privilege, income and social class.

WOW! Firstly I think very bright, motivated children, with supporting parents, and great teachers will do well almost anywhere. But to answer Goposie's question: We are in Surrey (not far from the SW London schools). Our 1st DC was ultra shy. We decided to go for a much smaller school than our local state primary (that had 100 children in reception), and went for a small non-selective Prep School to suit the needs of the particular DC, but we sent the second DC too. We never set out to go the private route. However, once you start you appreciate it. And as you move up the school you are supported, encouraged, and are told your childs' CAT scores and the relevance, have future schools suggested to you, have practice for exams, encouragement and relevant homework given (lots of it). Our school is not a school for the super rich. The parents there all encourage and support their children, embrace the homework (well most!), and want the best for their children. In most cases, both parents work. The children are supported at home with homework, and some do get tutors for the Year 6 11+ exams. I was like my DC. Shy. Didn't stick out. Middle of the road. I got lost in my local comprehensive. Lost and stuck and mainly didn't do that well. My DC having been through private prep and now in private secondary (not the top London schools) are doing really well. They are confident, clever (enough) and thriving at their chosen schools. I think people do what they can for their children, within the realms of their beliefs, financial situation and time. Coming from a prep school you get all the information, support and help you need to move forward into private secondary. Everyone at our school that sought private secondary secured a place at one of their chosen schools at 11+ (not necessarily the top choice, but one of their choices).