Dropping Art GCSE?

[emMo13]

DD wants to drop art GCSE because she feels the workload is too high and she doesn’t have enough time to revise for other subjects. DD is a procrastinator but has recently started to get down to it and has now realised she’s started too late. I have been telling her she needs to get her finger out for since half way through year 10, but to no avail. Maybe it’s my shoddy parenting. Regardless, I’m willing to accommodate her wishes because I don’t think that not letting her drop it out of spite is going to achieve anything at this point. I’m 100% sure that if DD replaced the time she was spending doing art, she’d do incredibly well at the rest of her subjects (she has 10 others, and did RE last year), since she spends days on it and nothing else. Yes - it’s a time management thing when it comes to art (I’ve been blasted about that before) but she insists that if she had to do it to a passable quality she’d still spend a significant amount of time on it and there’s no point spending that time just to get a 4 or a 5. Thoughts? Has anyone ever dropped art so late?

sour That's the reason why some of my y11s aren't taking it to a level. They e enjoyed it but when they're taking 3 or 4 A levels then they don't want to take a subject that's a black hole.
teen mini options sounds good.

My general concern about 2 year ks3 and 3 year ks4 is that a narrowing of the curriculum may not disadvantage students who already have educationally broad home lives, who already do lots of enrichment out of school, who already have parents and family who'll expose them to a range of topics. A narrowing of the ks3 curriculum shrinks the world for disadvantaged pupils. That happens in terms of subjects offered and how subjects are taught. For example I know of some English departments teaching extracts for most of ks3 rather than whole texts and then using GCSE questions throughout. My friend sat in a meeting where this proposal was put 'Mr Blogs, we looked at question level analysis and your y11 cohort didn't do as well on paper 1 question 3. We'd like you to look at your department schemes of work and find ways to demonstrate you're addressing this' and so Mr blogs as HOD went back and decided that Year 9 need to have a scheme looking at question 3 skills. Meanwhile in another school locally I'm teaching a novel to my y9s because English is about texts not extracts and exams from y7.

Look at top private schools and the creative arts and sport are particular strengths and there's loads of enrichment in those areas, meanwhile in the state sector those areas are being cut (less so in more leafy catchment schools though). As departments get cut, so do enrichment opportunities and so the educational divide gets wider. The culturally and opportunity rich get richer and the culturally and opportunity poor get poorer.

noble You've been busy enjoying time with your DCs?

teen Whereas some of us have been slowly but surely ploughing through year 11 mock papers and being impressed with how the studnets have got on but equally a bit fed up with reading 60 English Language papers so have been perusing MN for sanity (though not quite successfully at times). The literature is much more fun to mark.

I'm not a fan of a 3 year KS4 because it means picking options 4.5 terms into secondary school when many of the cohort will be only 12 - far too young.
If DD1 had had to choose then she wouldn't have picked French and wouldn't have chosen a second MFL either.
It's too big a decision to take on too little information, at too young an age.

Kafka dad references completely ignored, sadly. Even though he was arguably quite a fun guy.

Oh well, back to the everyday.

So far I've had:

1. A three year KS3, two year KS4 and two year KS5 for DD1.
2. A two year KS3, two year KS4 and three year KS5 for DD2, DD3, DS1, DS2, DS3 and DS4.
3. A two year KS3, three year KS4 and now into a two year KS5 for DD4.

There's not a single thin sheet of paper to put between them. It's all education. The details don't matter too much.

noblegiraffe my bet is that very few schools will be backtracking fast (my bets are usually right).

One thing that is not quite making sense to me is the predicting a 4/5 mark on Art at this stage.
As far as I understand the way GCSE art works, there is a coursework component (60%) which is to be handed in some time in January (whether that is the beginning or end of January seems to differ between schools). Then there is the 40% part, which starts in January once the coursework is handed in (again from what I can tell, different schools decide when they start this portion - the earliest the can start is 2nd January, at least for AQA, as that is when AQA put the topics on some portal, accessible by the art teachers/school).
That means in terms of the 40% component, OP's DD is in exactly the same place as every other art GCSE student. So, statistically assuming she is capable of getting an 8/9 in the 40% component, how badly does she have to do to get a 4/5?

So I just checked the grade boundaries for AQA for last year. Total score was out of 480 - so that would be out of 288 for the coursework and out of 192 for the 40% component. And 8 in art was set at 371, so if on got an equivalent percentage in the 40% component one would get 148.4. A 4 was 235 total, so in order to get a 4, one would only need 86.6 raw score in the 60% coursework if one could achieve an 8 in the 40%, which is less than a 2 for the total. Is it possible that even with the limited work the OP's DD has done, she could possibly only be getting 86.6 for that 60% if she is actually capable of 8/9 work?

Or is this all based on the assumption that she will perform equally well or badly in the 40% as in the 60%, even if she now decides to start working?
I guess what I am saying is, because 40% is based on work between January and April/May, she would have to be very badily failing Art currently to not have the chance to do better than a 4/5, even if an 8/9 might not be achievable at this point

Bimkom you deserve the MN Oscar of all time for that analysis of AQA Art marks and boundaries, assuming you're a layperson parent and not a teacher.

How can you say the details don't matter between a two year or three year KS3 when it has such an impact on choosing GCSE options?

All the points you have made about the importance of schools taking into consideration the needs and desires of the pupils (some good points at times) - surely an extra year is very significant to allow pupils to choose options carefully?

Bobby I'm simply comparing the outcomes - in terms of not just grades but trajectories and careers - of eight DC with different curriculum offers and say that it seems to work any which way. If you don't fuss too much. Don't ask me how it works, it just seems not to make a huge difference. Perhaps options don't matter too much at GCSE provided you have a reasonable spread. My father always advised not thinking too much and I've quite liked that advice.

Ofsted have already slated a 3 year KS3. Sean Harford said on twitter ‘Nobody is saying a school will be judged simply on the length of KS3. But a school needs to be able to explain how pupils get their full entitlement to age 14 if they are forced to drop drama/music/art/DT/history/geog etc at end of Y8.’

Once Ofsted start judging the curriculum under the new framework, schools will follow whatever they think will get the best rating. They always do.

3 year KS4 that should be.

Bimkom I am more of a glass half empty sort of person.

If the Art department have indicated to the DD that she is on course for a 4/5 then the way I view it she has already lost 30% of the total marks before even starting to try to earn the last 40% in January. That means even if she got full marks the best she could get would be a 7. Given her performance for the first 60% and the subjective nature of the subject this seems highly unlikely.

If she did pull her socks up and get 70-75% of the 40% available, so 7/8 standard this would still only give her a 5 overall or perhaps if she crosses her fingers a borderline 6.

Back to the op - what would happen if the dparent just said to a school 'she's not taking it, that's that, withdraw her entry please'? (I assume all the exams have been entered for by now, so just not turning up for the exam/not submitting the course work would mean you got a U?)

Obviously you would in practice say it more politely than that! - but I suppose my question is whether ultimately the parent or the school has power to decide what exams the dc is entered for?

On the supervision point, I have heard of cases where the dc carries on attending the lessons but doesn't take the exams. But I can see that that may not always work - depending on the dc it could be very disruptive.

sorry don't know why I said 'back to the op' there - the convo was already firmly on the op's circumstances!

Ah that's interesting soursprout. So what happens if you just say at some point in yr 11 'no I don't want to do this anymore thanks, withdraw me from the exam please'. Ultimately can you 'instruct' the school to do that - or even withdraw directly by contacting the exam board?

Having the exam given out weeks earlier sounds as though it has pros and cons - yes they can prepare, but quite a risk that the perfectionist dc gets distracted from other subjects and spends too much time on the art! Though yes a good lesson in time management. I suppose the same applies to dt, textiles, music (composition) as well - and in fact anything with coursework!

iwanted
It doesn't take hours at home because most of the prep is done during school.

If a student follows a revision/preparation timetable (the sort most schools suggests and go through) then there's no reason for it to take up a huge amount of time.

A parent could seek a discussion with a school about options. Ultimately SLT will probably want to discuss a number of the practical & pedagogical considerations I've mentioned a few times before deciding if a situation has extenuating circumstances to drop or if support can be given another way. Dropping on demand isn't a standard policy in comprehensive schools.

And you're right on DT, textiles, music composition, drama etc. All require students to be organised and work effectively. They are excellent breaks from more formal written subjects, but require a sense of perspective and desire to be responsible.

Yes drama's another one maisypops - though interestingly the one I've heard most comments about the workload is art!

I'm (idly) interested in the 'if all else fails' position - if after all the discussions with the slt the dparent and school still disagree, can the school actually 'require' the candidate to remain entered for an exam - ultimately is it the dc's or dparent's decision, or the school's? (Leaving aside the effect on the relationship between the school and dc which is a separate issue.) Obviously no one can physically force the dc to turn up or hand in course work, but if that results in a U it isn't a very good option!

I agree. Art seems to be the one out of all coursework subjects that seems to be an endless swamp of work if you let it.

Exam entries often go in quite early and there's a fine/fee for changes to them after certain dates.

There's the not turn up on the day option and that would get a U (or a low grade depending on whether there's enough points on coursework to score).

I've never seen a situation that hasn't been resolved one way or another so don't know if you can unilaterally remove a student. I would guess not as the centres administer entries. Even within a school most subject teachers don't touch the entries as it's all done by a central exams person in school.

Personally, an open discussion with school about the situation, whilst being aware that DC may need to step up responsibility for time management and making the most of existing support options etc (which most of us said months ago on a previous thread) is the way forward.

I'm interested in the answer to that question too Iwanted. I am a bit surprised at the general assumption that the school would not be inclined to let an 8/9 student with 10 other subjects drop their weak one in a mixed ability comp.

My DC are "high achievers" with "involved parents" in a mixed ability comp. My general attitude is to let the teachers and the school do their job and be guided by them and supportive of both them and my DC. However my first loyalty is always to my DC and I would have the ability to make life very difficult and create a lot of extra work for the school right up to management team level if I thought they were working against my DC. This in turn would spill over to all my DC's friends which would then have a knock on effect right through the school.

A demotivated DC of mine forced to remain in an unnecessary class they were doing badly in has the potential to be far far more disruptive than quietly withdrawing them for "personal reasons". As it is I tell mine they are at liberty to sleep through compulsory RE and when the school suggested they might like to sit the exam as an extra I told them to politely decline unless they were suddenly developing philosophical inclinations.

In my experience of a range of schools barely veiled threats towards the management do not get you what you want.

Iwantedthatname Art is potentially a much bigger workload than Drama and once the exam title is given it's certainly the case that students with perfectionist tendencies may well spend a disproportionate time on it. DD4 certainly did in the April/ May period last year but happens to be good at juggling her subjects so had made way for doing lots of Art. It's definitely the subject which carries by far the most risk of getting students sidetracked.

On your other question, if a parent decided that their DC, with good predicted grades for a standard number of GCSEs incl all the core subjects, was risking those grades to get a poor grade for an extra subject which was only going to ramp up stress, then they could tell the school that they were advising their DC to do a no show. Ultimately the school would back down, not wanting a U on their results. It would help a lot if the school had a good current relationship with that parent, otherwise the school might be more likely to get arsey if it had the sort of dig-in-and-insist-on-being-right mentality sometimes evident in teachers. A high quality HT wouldn't push it though.

That post crossed with the last four or so, and repeats other people to an extent.