Dropping Art GCSE?

[emMo13]

DD wants to drop art GCSE because she feels the workload is too high and she doesn’t have enough time to revise for other subjects. DD is a procrastinator but has recently started to get down to it and has now realised she’s started too late. I have been telling her she needs to get her finger out for since half way through year 10, but to no avail. Maybe it’s my shoddy parenting. Regardless, I’m willing to accommodate her wishes because I don’t think that not letting her drop it out of spite is going to achieve anything at this point. I’m 100% sure that if DD replaced the time she was spending doing art, she’d do incredibly well at the rest of her subjects (she has 10 others, and did RE last year), since she spends days on it and nothing else. Yes - it’s a time management thing when it comes to art (I’ve been blasted about that before) but she insists that if she had to do it to a passable quality she’d still spend a significant amount of time on it and there’s no point spending that time just to get a 4 or a 5. Thoughts? Has anyone ever dropped art so late?

I’ve worked in three state secondaries. None would let a pupil drop a gcse in these circumstances. What would she do while the rest of the year group were in one of their options subjects?

She'd sit in the art lesson working on her other subjects. That's what usually happens with dropped subjects.

I agree msjane
And as this is the same situation as a previous thread it seems like the student hasn't done much to work on their own time management and are still waiting for an easy option.

No school I've worked in would let a student drop a subject this late unless there were significantly extenuating circumstances (e.g. were dual registered with an alternative provision provider / significant SEND issues).

goodbye EPQ different. It's usually done as an extra on top of 3 or 4 a levels. Some schools have most students do it, like they used to so for general studies, but it's not comparable to dropping a GCSE option subject half way through y11.

MaisyPops obviously I know the EPQ is different but at our school the curriculum is intended to be three A levels plus the EPQ or four A levels. So it's unusual to be only doing three especially as one of the highest achievers, without medical reasons for needing to do so. But she has sound academic reasons (needing to spend more time doing something else and less time focussed on a small area) and the school listened and was fine with it. So on the actual facts, not that different.

Ten of the reformed GCSEs taken in one sitting is absolutely fine. So what if the DD has let the art work slip? If making it up compromises her ten other GCSEs then the idea that there's some huge life lesson to be learned by completing something she's started then that seems symptomatic to me of a narrow priggish attitude which isn't looking at the cost/ benefit it terms of outcome (to the school as well as the student). That kind of attitude is very annoying. Fortunately our school isn't the type of school which says no is the answer now what's the question?

I would go further and add that at our school the SLT took aside a group of Y11 students who they felt might do better to drop a subject and gave them that option. It was around March. The school didn't insist but talked the situation through with each individual and then went with whatever the student - having had a discussion - decided to do. So this idea that it's beyond the pale is just not correct. I know that ours isn't the only high performing school to take this approach.

I’m not suggesting it’s ‘beyond the pale’; I’m suggesting it’s rare in the schools I’ve worked in.

Both of the situations given here - a post sixteen student dropping EPQ and underperforming GCSE students being invited to drop subjects - are very different to the one the OP is asking about. I’m not saying I disagree with the OP’s suggestion, just that it might not be allowed.

MsJane and on the other hand I'm suggesting it's regarded as a completely sensible course in at the our school and some of the school's sister schools, also high performing.

In what way is it so different to either a) DD4's situation (Y12) or b) the situation of the Y11s in question? I would say it was remarkably similar at least to the latter - you're assuming their circumstances are all different to the OP's DD (not sure on what grounds).

goodbye but still A Level is different from GCSE. It's not a like for like comparison.

My point is that the OP mentioned this a while ago and was given a set of advice on how practically to move forward.

msjane is correct in saying it's rare. The times I've seen students dropping subjects in y11 are for extenuating circumstances, not because I'm getting 8s in my other subjects and don't want a 5 in abother subject because I've not managed my time.

I've known students who may not get onto their chosen level 3 route because they are at risk of not getting english/maths and 3 others go onto a different timetable and similar situations regarding alternative provision.
The idea of letting y11s drop option subjects because they've got to y11 and haven't managed their work/want to do fewer subjects isn't a sensible route.
There is a life lesson to be had, namely time management. Schools have to make decisions at an individual level and a cohoet level. Adopting a policy of underperform in a subject in y10 so you can drop it in y11 and then be housed somewhere else (because at GCSE they tend not to be kept in the same class) and work on what you like is a ridiculous precedent to set.

MaisyPops our school and me as a parent are obviously more slack than you are. I suspect, however, that our school and my DC get markedly better results at the cost of less emotional strain. That to me is a better life lesson than most others including 'time management'.

(My DC do have a rogue A here and there at GCSE and A level but are overwhelmingly A* and the school scored 40% 9s in the GCSEs last summer. I also don't sense an epidemic of crippling time management).

@MsJaneAusten @MaisyPops I understand what you’re saying but I must agree with @goodbyestranger - even if it wasn’t my child, surely it’s ridiculous to insist that dropping a GCSE due to poor time management shouldn’t happen just because it’s a “good lesson”. She’s not slacking either, she’s spending way too much time on it and the emotional damage and stress itself is a reason by itself to drop the subject. Why would you prefer eleven 8s/9s and one 4/5 with more strain that straight 8s/9s? That’s a poor attitude, surely.

Why would you prefer eleven 8s/9s and one 4/5 with more strain that straight 8s/9s? That’s a poor attitude, surely.

I didn’t say I would. That’s not my attitude at all.

Personally I think it would be bizarre to force a child to continue with a gcse like art if it will have an impact on her ability to achieve the highest grades in other subjects.

I will be pushing very hard for DS2 to do fewer than the typical 10 GSCEs when his time comes. Whereas DS1 will be fine.

Agree that it would be sensible to approach the school about this.

Slightly shocked at the dismissive attitude towards 4/5 grades. I appreciate it may be out of step with a clutch of 8/9 grades but many DC work extremely hard for these grades and indeed 'rogue A grades'

My point is that the solution is to manage time better and have a cut off on art.
Art GCSE is one of those subjects that can be a black hole for time if clear boudnaries on how much time is spent on it. Every school I've worked in has made that clear. Every year I see students wound up over art coursework in a way that I dont see for other subjects. It was the same when I was in school. My best friend seemed to spend hours and hours on art coursework that the rest of us didn't.

Dropping a GCSE because you don't like the grade you might get isn't the solution, otherwise we'd had dozens of students in every cohort wanting to drop subjects in y11 because they've decided they want more time elsewhere.

goodbyestranger It's a bit much to go from 'I disagree with you on something' to speculating that your child's school gets better results than those of people you disagree with.
As it happens my school does allow dropping in extenuating circumstances (like the multiple examples I've given). We just don't allow it because students and parents don't like the grade they might get.

I would say that 'encouraging' students who 'might do better to drop a subject' looks suspiciously like a school massaging its results to maintain its % of the top grades to me ... 'a little gentle persuasion' for students who might affect those all important headline numbers with (shock, horror) the odd B or 5 to drop the subject instead.

Not particularly honest or pretty behaviour, tbh.

I can understand a student labouring for a 1 or 2 in a subject and threatening a 4/5 in English or Maths by doing so being allowed to drop a subject. I have experience of students with CFS or eating disorders leading to intermittent school attendance doing a reduced numbeer of subjects. Those are in the interests of the student. But suggesting that a pupil generally getting grades equivalent to As and A*s should drop a subject or two because their grades wouldn't be 'in line with the school norms / aspirations', though still passing .. hmm.

My dd also thinking of dropping art . She loves it too, but it takes so much time, she has an auto-immune disease that makes her tired, and she is worrying about the impact on other subjects.
There certainly seems far more work out of school for this than when I did art O level.

But actually stuff the schools and their results. This is about the children and their futures. For those children who would do better spending more time on core subjects and thus getting better grades in those core subjects that surely makes more sense than making them spread themselves too thinly and thus get lower grades in a greater number of subjects.

If that means children dropping subjects where they won't do well in order to focus on fewer core subjects then so be it.

Bobby I'm not being dismissive of 4s and 5s for those DC who work hard to get them and for whom those grades are an achievement. But for the academically able those are not ok results and would be a disappointment - and it's an academically able DC in question here. One really doesn't have to type out a great long caveat each time one talks about grades just so as not to offend those who aren't likely to achieve 8s/9s.

MaisyPops four of my DC have done Art GCSE so I'm very familiar with the workload (especially since the three DDs who did Art were complete perfectionists. All got A* and one was top in the country). I'm equally familiar with the woes it can cause. For that reason I strongly believe that dropping it before it impacts on other grades and in the context of an arguably over large number of reformed GCSEs is a very sound idea. I would say that the emotional health of a hard working Y11 girl is of more importance than some inchoate notion of moral improvement.

As far as the so called speculation goes it's not really that speculative, my so called speculation, given that the school is on track to be one of the highest performing state schools in the country for last year's new spec GCSEs. And therefore not a leap at all, let alone a big one. The results probably have something to do with the overall pragmatism of the SLT, quite aside from the ability and work ethic of the students and the quality of teaching. Only allowing the dropping of a subject in 'extenuating circumstances' is narrow, to my mind - but obviously not to yours. So we'll disagree!

can'tkeepawayforever yes if the school was doing it to save itself a 4 or 5 that could be interpreted as self serving on the part of the school. Yours is the usual knee jerk refrain of 'league tables' etc. That's not been the case at my DCs' school. Plenty of students wanted to carry on with the relevant subject and there was absolutely no quibble. This approach is about supporting students to achieve as well as they can for the future and for university applications while also keeping a weather eye on their emotional health. I have to say that approach is attractive to me and seems to serve students well - better than some dreary 1950s mantra about time management/ work place.

Goodbye,

It is obviously quite hard to determine a school's motivation for doing something.

It was in fact your own comments about its high results that had me wondering, as if a representative member of the parent body finds high results the important thing to mention about a school, this 'self image' is perhaps 'inbuilt into its ethos' in a way that COULD give rise to actions that subtly or unsubtly maintain those results.

Had you not mentioned the results in the way you did, I would have continued to think it entirely possible that the decisions were wholly based on a student-centred approach to their welfare and broader education, as it has been when struggling or ill students in the schools I know of have reduced their GCSE commitments.

You know the school best - if you know it to be wholly student-centred in its concerns and approach for all students of all abilities and outcomes, then that is what matters.

It's a superselective grammar can'tkeepawayforever; results are fairly central!

It's not in the least hard for me to know what the motivation is. I know the school exceptionally well. As a parent I'm probably one of the best informed if not the best informed, rather than representative. This is about students not league tables - the school leadership has a little more depth than that. Which isn't to say results aren't improved. But good results are also good for students, especially if they emerge from the exam season healthy.

Personally, I could imagine a policy at a SS to be something like:

We know these are high achieving ambitious pupils.
Lets give them all the chance to do 12 GCSE, which we know is a very high number, but many can and will thrive on this.
However when we get into y11 if there are any who appear to be struggling, we don't want them over stressed so we will give them the option to drop one.

That wouldn't seem unreasonable to me.

For me the question marks with the OP are:

• why is this still ongoing
• why is it seen as a binary choice between 8/9 for Art or 4/5 (where is the grade 6/7 option?)
• what evidence is there that the other subjects are suffering
• what support has been put in place / things attempted so far, for better time management

It is clear some schools are more happy to let a student drop a subject than others, the OP needs to talk with the school.

cantkeepawayforever that may need a bit of explanation. Apart from anything else, my eight DC have all attended the same school, the first starting over seventeen years ago and the youngest still there, with four or five there for most of the years between then and now (I think! Haven't actually done an analysis!). Anyhow more DC there from the same parent than any other parent in the school since it's foundation in the first part of the sixteenth century. Hence my claim not to be representative and to knowing it well.

Good post TTT, I haven't seen the other threads so coming to the situation new.

TeenTimesTwo
I agree. The ongoing situation is the thing that makes no sense.
What was done by the school and student (especially the student if they are doing endless hours out of school) between the first thread and here.

cantkeepawayforever
I agree. Selective school wants to have a high % on their results. Parents want their child to be able to say straight 8/9s. Conclusion, schools and parents have an interest in trying to maintain the image of high results etc. Make no bones about It, that will not have been an altruistic decision by the school. Equally the 'students study different subjects in their same classroom as the dropped subject might be something that works in a selective school, but again how does that approach transfer to a mixed state comprehensive?

I agree with your questions teen. I'd want to know specifically what's been going on to get to a situation like this in y11.