DS winging it in year 8 - wwyd?

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DS is in year 8 as a music scholar in a selective indie.
He's pretty able - not genius or a super high flyer, but more than capable of getting good and very good marks in all subjects.
Since September, we've left him to his own devices much more, with regards to homework and revision. It's recently become obvious that he is winging it quite often - leaving homework to the last minute, barely doing any revision for tests etc. In most areas, he's getting away with it, getting good marks for homework and doing ok in most tests, but he's not doing well in things like Latin and Spanish tests.
More concerning is that he has now started to lie about his failings, even though he knows we can easily uncover his lies by going into his school online portal. For example, he had a Latin vocab test on Monday which we were aware of, so made sure he revised for it. We asked him how it went, but he replied that he'd got his days mixed up and it was actually the next day; the reality is that it WAS on Monday, he failed it and had to retake it on Tuesday. What he'd actually failed on was very conjugations, which he'd told us he didn't need to know when we'd asked him during revision - the fact that he was able to pass the test with nearly full marks the next day shows that he's just not putting the effort in initially.

We're struggling to know how to address this issue. One of the factors that seems to be at play is that he feels he gets very little free time. His.music commitments and the location of the school mean he's out of the house 11 hours a day, sometimes more. On top of academic demands, he also has to fit in practice on 2 instruments. That said, he's wasting a lot of time trying to avoid doing the things he has to do and generally managing his time poorly. We've said that life would be much easier if he got the chores out of the way before going on the PS4, but he's not buying that because, on the occasions we've made him work first he's faffed around so much that there's little or no time left for anything enjoyable afterwards.

So, what's the best way of tackling this, and is it fairly par for the course with 13 year old boys?

Too much. I think I would acknowledge that his schedule is too much, allow him to be sketchy on the practice and wing it on the homework. Allow more PS4 time. If he fails a few tests and has to retake he may start to prepare himself better. If you can’t cut his commute you may need a plan B school. Something has to give, don’t let it be him. (This is year 8 - he has GCSEs, ALevels, Uni, job - when does his work life balance kick in on this pathway).

Dare I say, at this point, that my DD is in year 10 of a different school and she has been told by the school that her year group are expected to do 2.5 hours work every night, and 6 hours every day at weekends and holidays?

This is not us setting the pace for either child, it's what their schools expect. Both children are happy at their schools, neither want to move school.

my DD is in year 10 of a different school and she has been told by the school that her year group are expected to do 2.5 hours work every night, and 6 hours every day at weekends and holidays

They expect them to work a seven day week? Assuming a six hour school day, that's 54.5 hours a week! When do they get a break?

Sounds bloody awful. If I had that schedule I'd be falling apart.

Hi! I wonder if school could offer some advice, for example, matching him up with an older pupil as a mentor. ime successful musicians have to be super organised, efficient with their time and non-prevaricators. Pupils who are very successful in competitive sport to a high standard are similar. IMO, yr 8 is what separates the men from the boys in this regard. If he can't get motivated and organised, can't resist the pull of Fortnite or the X-box, he will not fulfil his potential.

I can understand your point and his.

How about a strictly timed wind down hour when he gets in. An hour where he can do exactly what he wants and if that is nothing then so be it.

After that he has to get down to homework/practice.

I know when I have had a long day I don't want to start on anything else until I have had a break.

It is not uncommon for boys to lose their 'mojo' at this age and need more lie-ins and doing 'nothing' or hanging-out. That also means that their drive for their previous interest and talent may dwindle. Don't forget it is also a very busy term and near the half term.
As a parent it can be sad when they lose their 'buzz'.

Take a step-back and think for the longer term. Does he want to be or may want to be a professional musician? Especially if not (and in most cases music will be a hobby that gives kudos at school rather than a career), the absolute priority should be sorting out a study routine, music practice will have to give for the needs of more sleep and down time.
Music practice could be at a bare minimum or even stopped during the term time weekdays and done more at the week-ends and the holiday. Orchestral and choir rehearsals with sight reading can keep his musicianship ticking along during the week days.

There will of course be those DSs who continue to be super driven or super efficient or very high ability (so nothing takes much time) throughout the teenage years. The reality is that many won't be and won't realise their potential in their childhood talents even if continually pushed and micromanaged. The latter style is a parental choice and will create higher achieving DCs but at too high a cost for some.
My preference is not for automatons but encouraging self -motivated DCs with good effective work habits (which may require parental boundary setting for electronic devices and earlier bed times) working steadily but making their own plans for their time. Eventually they will discover or re discover their aspirations if they feel in control. Enough relaxation during a working week is key but if they are in control they may themselves choose to have less to achieve certain aims. I agree that mentors whether they are older students, teachers other adults can all be important to give advice along that route.

DD's school only had a 5 hour day. It is the best secondary school in the LA, achieves excellent GCSE results and this year achieved stellar A level results.

I don't know what the norm is for state secondary schools elsewhere, but I know that only the private schools have 6 hour days round here.

That’s a desperately tough schedule for him.

If he wants to do it he will make it work.

I had a not that bright some SN sporty son who wanted to achieve academically.

By yr 8 I was there if he asked and left him to it otherwise.

Maybe he’s going to have to get a detention or two.

Year 8 is still very young - I can remember being that age. What you consider to be ‘wasting’ time (apart from the arguing!) may be his brain trying to get the space/downtime he needs.

He's at the school because he's a music scholar; if he drops music ( he doesn't want to), he'd have to move to another school.
I don't consider doing nothing wasted time, but if you only have limited time and there are things you'd prefer to do with that time, it IS a waste if you don't do them. Of course he needs down time, but it's impossible for him to have an hour doing nothing and then want another hour of 'free time' on the PS4 - there's simply not enough hours in the day for him to have every sort of down time. He has 2x 40 minute journeys each day, where he listens to music or watches videos on YouTube. He's been getting home and having an hour or more on the PS4, then maybe starting homework, then having supper. He's been doing written homework because he knows the teachers will know straight away if he hasn't, but not any kind of revision.
He treats weekends as downtime, so hasn't been doing much/any homework/revision then, despite us suggesting that doing an amount will free up his evenings.

He doesn't want to change school, he doesn't want to give up music, we can't do anything about the travel times or the length of the school day, so it's a case of helping him to manage his time, to be able to give him a balanced life.

I agree with previous posters. He isn't winging it, he's treading water. Something has to give and if it's Latin vocab then you might have to just be fine with that. Presumably he needs to keep his instrument practice and after school music commitments to maintain his 'music scholar' status (is this a financial scholarship thing?) and he needs to eat, sleep and have some chill out time. You seem to think that nothing can give and I would disagree with that.
My Y10 ds dropped swimming at a similar age because he was just knackered with keeping on top of school work and swimming every day plus competitions all over the country. He does another sport twice a week but skips the weeknight session if he has too much schoolwork on. He could do both but would lose downtime or drop grades and chooses not to and I think that's fair enough.
My dcs also have a long day - leaving at 7.15 and getting home at 5. They gain 5+ hours a week on your ds and it's still difficult some days. I've recently changed my hours at work so I can sometimes do the school run myself rather than using the school bus which gains them about 40min each way. Is there anything you can do creatively around the school run to get some time? Could he practice one instrument before school to free up evenings? Could he let one instrument slide?

IMO he doesn't have enough time on a school day to just "be".

DD had much shorter days. Leave the house at 7.40 for the bus, a 15 minute journey to school for an 8.20 am start. A 5 hour day with one break and a short lunchbreak, finish school at 2.50pm, bus home and home by 3.20 pm. She had plenty of down time and achieved mostly A/A* at GCSE and AAA at A level.

Obviously she wasn't a music scholar, but I still think the weekdays are too full on for your DS. Although I feel your pain as DD could get an A level in procrastination

x-posts. Don't understand why he's taking over an hour to do a 40 min journey or why he needs to stay in school for an hour 3x a week after school has finished. fwiw I don't think it's especially unusual to sack off extra revision in Y8. Lots of children do shift their attitude in this respect once the get to Y10 and have dropped the subjects they don't like and revision has a more obvious purpose. Maybe it wouldn't do any harm to knock the ps4 on the head on weeknights if it is being treated by him as another thing to be done rather than chill out time iyswim. It's very easy to develop minor addictions to things like that and when you cross that line it isn't a nice relaxing chill thing you do after homework but something that must be done and then you need to relax on top of that. I speak as someone who nearly failed my degree because of "Sims"

His bus is a 40 minute journeys, but we have to drive him to the bus stop.
The way his school works is that the return bus doesn't leave until 5pm on 2 evenings, to allow students to take part in extra curricular activities on site. His sister has after school activities, 3 nights a week, so he has to wait for me to pick them both up on those nights.

Good lord.

You seem to have yor fingers in your ears op.

Zerofuchsgiven, I've read every single response posted. They suggest moving school, giving up music, keeping up music and letting school work slide, banning the PS4, letying him have more time on the PS4, scheduling his time, not scheduling his time, leaving him to get detentions, encouraging him to prioritise school work over hobbies, talking to the school, encouraging him to revise/do homework in pockets of free time, encouraging him to do nothing in his free time.
There are almost as many opinions about how to deal with this as there are posters commenting.

Which bit am I not listening to?

Dear God it's no wonder such a lot of young people suffer from such fragile mental health these days. It's important to apply yourself and work hard, but it's also ok to fail sometimes. And everyone needs to just vegetate every now and again. It sounds as though your son is bright and talented OP. I wouldn't worry too much about a failed Latin test.

OP, I think the music element is very important to you because I think I've seen you on other music threads.

That does seem like way too long a day for your DS. It may be that he needs to do a lot of work to keep up with the academic standards of the selective indie if he's not a natural high-flyer, and that's the bit that is difficult to do when you add in the music practice.

While I see your point about using the hour he's stuck waiting after school for homework, I can also see that he just needs a break after a long day!

I think you are going to have to let the academic side go a bit if maintaining the music side is important to him. Not all children can do it all.

Dd gave up a place at an academically selective private school inorder to attend a vocational performign arts school on a bursary with similarly long days. The schoo day was 9am-6pm every day plus 3 hours on a Saturday morning. Her journey time to and from school was 60-90 minutes.

In Year 8 we let academics slide. Her form tutor/pastoral care person said that she needed down time. The school gave minimum homework anyway (maybe half an hour a night) and we mostly just let her be so that she didn't burn out. However she wanted to be at the school with such a passion that she was prepared to forgo things like social media, gaming and socialising which don't think it sounds like your son is.

By the time it came round to GCSE's she had matured a bit and had settled into a pattern including using the journey to work. She came out last year with 2 Grade 9's, and the rest mostly Grade 8's with one Grade 7 and a 6 in her weakest subject.

We learnt that sometimes good enough has to be sufficient.

OP I understand where you are. My DC are at a very similar school and also live a fair way away so have a long commute.

As I said upthread I think you need to build in more down time. The time on the bus isn't enough IME. For us that meant we dropped activities. In your DSs case clearly that isn't going to be music since he's a music scholar. Other things need to give.

I think however the biggest concern for me in your posts is the fact that he lied to you about the latin test and the fact that he had to retake it. That indicates that he feels you're a source (not the only one of course) of the pressure he's under.

I would urge you (and anyone with children of this age) to watch the Dick Moore talk on Youtube. He came to our school and is an amazingly inspiring speaker. The talk he gave to pupils at Harrow Hong Kong is on youtube in full with all of the slides. DS1 watched it a few weeks ago and found it very useful.

There is also a much shortened version of the talk he does to parents on as a Tedtalk. I think this (link below) might also be the lengthier version. It is truly the most powerful talk I have every been to.

You will come away as parents feeling guilt ridden (I literally sat there thinking "Oh my God I left DS1 at home and told him he had to finish his revision on two subjects by the time I got home" - I am this parent! ), but also with thoughts on how to adjust the way you approach this sort of stuff. You can't micro manage them you have to let them handle these things themselves or else with the most well meaning of intentions you are actually setting them up to fail.

The test "fails" are the school's issue, not ours. They set each pupil challenge grades, based on previous performance and act if a pupil doesn't come close to that grade in tests.
I mentioned the Latin test, in particular, as a symptom of a problem that had become apparent. DS had to retake it, which meant losing break time, do another bit of downtime gone. It's not the first time, either. I don't want him having to redo test after test, if there's a way of preventing it.
I'm quite happy forgood enough to be good enough, but the school has a different expectation. As suggested earlier, we'll arrange to talk to the deputy head of academics and see what they suggest.

He sounds like he's a good kid and you need to trust him to work his way through it and find the balance that is right for him. Not go making a big fuss and speaking to the Head of Academics which will simply put more pressure on him

Challenge grades for every single little test done in class, not just the end of term exams?

I don't think I'd bother speaking to school at this point. He has already redone the test and got nearly full marks. I'm sure if the school are concerned they would talk to you.