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Secondary education

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Original poster

Secondary discipline - what are our rights?

38 replies

manitz · 02/10/2018 19:29

Dd1 is y11 just got a detention for tomorrow but works after school so can’t go. I’ve emailed school to suggest a different evening and got no reply. May get something in morning.

She doesn’t generally get detentions so this is the first time it’s come up. How do schools generally view after school work? Do they recognise that it’s a commitment that outweighs their punishment?

We got the letter at 3 today and det is at 3 tomorrow. She won’t be attending detention as that is not enough notice to have time off work imo. Im happy for her to be punished another evening..,

OP posts:
JiltedJohnsJulie · 02/10/2018 19:33

Have you said in your email that you are happy for her to have a detention at another time OP?

Anasnake · 02/10/2018 19:35

24 hours notice is pretty normal in many schools. What time did you email school ?

Original poster
manitz · 02/10/2018 19:38

Yes I offered them Friday. I’m a bit frustrated with her as she’s committed to 3 evenings of work this year. I’m a bit frustrated with the school as they keep amending their punishment policy and seem to be punishing kids who are generally doing alright & im not sure it’s much of a motivator.

In this case I think she deserves it. Just getting fed up as I seem to get a det letter every week as dd2 is constantly forgetting stuff. Plus I thought in y11 they might treat them a bit more like adults. Sorry just ranting.

OP posts:
Original poster
manitz · 02/10/2018 19:40

I replied to the email as soon as I got it. Just not sure if paid work gets precedent over just had other plans.

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GreenTulips · 02/10/2018 19:42

They have to have your permission to keep them after school - youdo not have to give it

So in this case you are giving it, just a different evening

C0untDucku1a · 02/10/2018 19:46

Tell het year tutor to put on the school statem she can do detentions on x and y night due to work commitments.

TeenTimesTwo · 02/10/2018 19:47

If she has work straight after school, how is she going to cope when there are after school revision sessions later in the year?

Original poster
manitz · 02/10/2018 19:47

Ok that’s great. I don’t want to be at loggerheads with the school over this as I try to be supportive even if I don’t always agree. But this job gives her great experience (wish it was only 2 eves) & I don’t want her to lose it as they are offering to pay for training.

OP posts:
Hellohah · 02/10/2018 19:48

@Green Tulips... schools don't need permission from parents to keep kids after school for punishment. I thought they would, but we had a letter from DS's school informing this and I looked it up on the government website. Schools don't even have to inform parents of after school detentions at all.

BoneyBackJefferson · 02/10/2018 19:49

manitz
Yes I offered them Friday

So if the teacher has commitments on that night she should just drop them?

What what would happen at my school is that it would go down as a missed detention and go to the next sanction.

MaisyPops · 02/10/2018 19:51

They have to have your permission to keep them after school - youdo not have to give it
School do not have to have consent for detentions, they just won't forcibly detain. The missed detention will just count as a missed detention and will follow up the policy accordingly.

The idea of 'don't give consent becaus they can't make you' comes up here a lot. It isn't true.

seem to be punishing kids who are generally doing alright & im not sure it’s much of a motivator.
A behaviour policy has to consistently sanction all students. A system that says Timmy can have a detention for X but Sarah doesn't get a detention for X because she's normally so good is a crap behaviour policy.

op
Work, clubs whatever doesn't get priority. A detention is a sanction ran by school to fit alongside after school meetings, professional development etc. It's not something that slots in conveniently with the student's life.

That said, if a parent called me and said 'look Mrs pops we totally support school and the detention but this one is causing real issues' then I'd offer another evening but it would an evening fitting with my work schedule, not one of their choosing.

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 02/10/2018 19:51

I’m not sure you have a legal right here. They have to give you 24hrs notice in writing so you can raise any issues, but they aten’t obliged to change it just because you’ve raised an issue. You’re going to have to rely on the good nature of the school.

I’d be looking into the policy for what happens if a detention is missed tbh.

Hellohah · 02/10/2018 19:52

www.gov.uk/school-discipline-exclusions

Original poster
manitz · 02/10/2018 19:53

Teentimestwo that’s what I’ve said to her. I said she could go from one eve to 2 but she committed to 3. She’s promised me she’ll go down to 2 at half term. They’ve given us a time table for revision and it looks like some are repeated at lunch too. She works at a kids gym who have a lot of staff her age and she used to train there so I’m pretty sure they’ll respect gcse commitments after Xmas that’s why I want her to keep it.

OP posts:
MaisyPops · 02/10/2018 19:56

They have to give you 24hrs notice in writing
Most schools choose to offer 24hour notice as a courtesy. It isn't a requirement. It doesn't have to be in writing.

CherryPavlova · 02/10/2018 20:00

Has your child got a work permit? She’s meant to have and if you use work as a reason she can’t do a detention, they might have a view.

Original poster
manitz · 02/10/2018 20:06

Thanks for all your replies which are kind of what I suspected ie how can I just say I prefer one day over another? I do understand that but equally any worker has a duty to an employer. If they want to arrange it for next wed that would be fine as she could inform her employer.

Maisypops they revised the behaviour policy last year and it was a disaster because they had to run a det every evening & they were massive - the same punishment for forgetting a pen to swearing at a teacher. This year it has been revised again & im a bit wary. She did the big bit of homework but forgot the little bit.

I think lots of them forgot it and it’s happened a lot because they don’t think the little bit is important. So I’m a bit irritated about it but think she deserves the det. It’s a big school and dets are run every night - practically the whole school in attendance at every one last year - hoping this year will be a bit more sensible

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ChocolateWombat · 02/10/2018 20:08

I don't think it is up to you to say when it is convenient for her to attend the detention. Why should the teacher have to stay late after school on Friday, when DD has broken the rules and has other commitments? In this scenario, I think you should politely request an alternative time (not stating when it's handy for you) and also say that you won't do this again and that if she gets detention again you will be insisting she attends when it is set. There is no 'right' to do this, but it is possible to make a one off request, but really it does need to be a one-off with both school and her and you knowing you won't be doing it again.

I think you need to tell DD that if is happens again, you will be requiring her to go to the detention....she Will be in trouble at work for short notice cancellation, but that is a consequence of her being in trouble and she needs to know that will be the consequence and you won't protect her from the school detention or trouble at work. I'd also make clear that unless she sorts herself out at school she will have to give up the job. 3 days after school is too much to be honest .... It makes things at school and for homework very inflexible and only a super organised student is going to be able to cope with school and that level of work commitment. So I'd be saying you will step in for her this once, but not again and recognise yourself and for her, that although this job might have lots of benefits, it might just not be viable in this year of school for your DD and that the job cannot and should not take priority. It may well be that you will have to tell herbtonresign if she cannot reduce her hours or get her act together at school. Saying this and meaning it might be enough to get her to buck up her ideas, but if it isn't, then I really think the job should go.

And get beyond this 'what are our rights' thing. See school as the priority and that other things can only happen if they fit round it. Support the school who are trying to help your DD do her best. Supporting doesn't involve asking for alternative detentions more than once, or allowing activities social or work based which act as a hinderance.

And again,nthink carefully about the impact of 3 evenings working at this stage of school....the long term consequences could be pretty serious.

Original poster
manitz · 02/10/2018 20:09

Hm I have no idea about a work permit??? Probably ought to look into that...

Tbh I’m over it now, was just very ranty earlier. She says she’ll talk to her teacher tomorrow. I think she’s on it.

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MaisyPops · 02/10/2018 20:11

I agree with ChocolateWombat

Original poster
manitz · 02/10/2018 20:12

Thanks chocolate wombat. I agree 3 evenings too much but she is super organised & will be trained at work in a skill that is likely to be of use to her future career so I value it almost as high as school tbh.

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madvixen · 02/10/2018 20:12

If she doesn't have an employment permit then I'm doubtful that the school will provide any lenience.

There's quite a lot of rules around 15/16 year olds working, for example, they can only work 2 hours on a school night.
You might want to have a look at gov.uk and make sure her employer is doing everything by the book
www.gov.uk/child-employment/restrictions-on-child-employment

ChocolateWombat · 02/10/2018 20:14

I think I'd be insisitininsisinsists she reduces her evening work commitments ASAP and not waiting. It's good that there's a chance to do less. Even 2 evenings is a lot and reduces flexibility and time to do school work.

Many school have a policy that students should not work more than one evening and ideally only at weekends, with that just being one day. These are good policies and not intended to be bossy and draconian, but in recognition of the huge problems large outside school job commitments cause. It really isn't worth risking your grades for a few extra quid, but at the time,my students can struggle to see the bigger picture, so a policy, or clear guidance from parents on this, rather than letting them make their own choice, can be really helpful.

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 02/10/2018 20:16

You’re right maisy. Thinking about it, it might be one of the things Gove fiddled with.

MaisyPops · 02/10/2018 20:18

RafaIsTheKingOfClay
Oh yes. Another gove change.

Most will offer 24 hours notice for ease and courtesy (or a very clear outline of how to use same day e.g. one of my former schools had a policy of x y z =slt detention that afternoon. Well publicised. All students within walking distance)