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The DfE needs to stop the farce of compulsory Maths and English GCSE resits

645 replies

noblegiraffe · 24/08/2018 11:37

Another year, another 124,560 students failing their GCSE maths resit and 99672 students failing their GCSE English resit.

Colleges have been saying for years that this government policy is a failure, that students are entered into cycle of resits and failures that does nothing to boost their confidence or enhance their qualifications.

If you get a 3 in maths or English GCSE you have to resit GCSE. If you get a 2 or below, you can take other qualifications like functional maths instead.

The government argues that GCSE is the key to opening doors and as many students as possible should be resitting to get that opportunity. But wouldn’t a qualification that they are actually likely to pass be better?

The resit pass rate for English dropped from 35.5% to 33.1% this year and for maths dropped from 37% to 22.7%. This is not an improving picture!

www.tes.com/news/gcse-results-english-and-maths-pass-rates-drops

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AlexanderHamilton · 31/08/2018 09:43

My Dd has some poor science teaching between years 8-10. Luckily a retirement & the recruitment of an excellent replacement along with sheer hard work & Tassomai saved the day. Similarly she’s had some great maths teachers but the school has struggled to recruit & in year 8 especially she coasted along finding the work infuriatingly easy.

MaisyPops · 31/08/2018 09:49

Isentthesignal
The chronic shortage of maths teachers (English, science and MFL are up there too) is a national issue affecting most students, but disproportionately affecting schools who've been struggling for some time (as poor quality leadership makes it much more difficult to teach for a number of reasons. I've worked in one of those schools... but still somehow managed to teach my lower sets the GCSE course when everyone knows lower sets don't get taught the course properly because staff don't bother).

Until there a significant shift in a number of areas, the shortage of teachers is not going to get better.

I know people who have left because they've done all they can for their classes but not enough students got the C so SLT were going to bully them out by any route possible (ignoring the fact that there's no certainty they'll even get a replacement). Classes ended up being restructured in a last ditch attempt to cover ks4 within the team, KS3 got an unqualified cover supervisor long term.
Out of the people I trained with, less than half were teaching at 5 years. Range of issues. But none to do with the children.

Isentthesignal · 31/08/2018 09:52

We have had the infuriatingly easy class work, the illusion she feels that she has prepped well for the end of topic exam - everything easy etc then she sits the same exam as the top set and she completely bombs in it, feels devastated by how little she knew and how in reality she wasn’t at all prepared for the exam. Quite a few in her class have felt the same way - no room for them all to move up to the top set, no surprise tutors have been hired by half the class. Outstanding school my arse!

TeenTimesTwo · 31/08/2018 10:00

I can't believe the turn this thread has taken. Shock

It seems to have gone from A:

  • don't keep pushing kids into retaking exams they are going to fail
  • is a GCSE 4 the 'right' threshold
to B:
  • teachers can't be bothered to attempt to teach lower sets

The first is common sense, the second is blatantly untrue and incredibly unfair on teachers. Especially unfair that Noble, Maisy and others who give of their time on these boards are getting the flak.

In her time in secondary my DD moved from set 7 in maths to set 3. No sensible school will limit a child's achievement in maths or English just because higher sets are 'full'. They will achieve overlap between sets, or provide extension work. It is in no ones interests to limit the child as a strategy. Some schools / teachers may be poor but I struggle to believe anyone sets out to stop kids achieving level 2 passes.

Some teachers might be weak. But at least they are having a go. Until the teacher recruitment / retention issue is solved then we have what w have.

My DD2 didn't get 100 for her Maths or English. I know passing GCSE at grade 4+ is going to be a struggle for her. But that is because of the requirements of the exams, and her ability, not because teachers won't try.

Isentthesignal · 31/08/2018 10:01

Maisy - we are lucky to have quite an outstanding group of English teachers - Ds said he’d be happy to get any of them.
I know there is a crisis in teaching and it needs to be addressed its frustrating enough for kids like mine, but I can afford a tutor to teach the full curriculum - the parents who can’t pay and are not confident in Maths are left at the mercy of this crisis.

PickleNeedsAFriendInReading · 31/08/2018 10:04

Cakes, you said that people who want to do away with compulsory resits are denying the chance for children like yours to get GCSEs when they just need longer to do them and need to catch up.

NOBODY is advocating for a system where there are no chances of resits, where children only get one shot at it at a particular age.

What people want is the end to COMPULSORY resits, for children who are - for whatever reason - not in a position to take advantage of it that year. Some children are capable of resitting and improving their grade. I've known children who were close the first time, and with an extra year of input, to fill in some of the gaps, and who passed the next time. The smaller class and motivation they got from being in college made a difference. Others were totally turned off maths, hated it, wouldn't work, didn't attend. Others were cooperative but really just couldn't be bothered, and didn't put anything like enough effort in. Others were dyslexic or dyscalculic, and really wanted to be doing higher level courses, but simply weren't able to access the maths/English GCSE that they needed to get in. Insisting that all those children stay doing re-sits instead of something more productive, is what people are objecting to. Not refusing to give those who would like to carry on with maths and are capable, just needing more time, the opportunity.

You seem to think that there is some magic 'technique' that teachers can use in early secondary to catch all these low attainers up, and that they're just willfully not doing it, despite the fact that many teachers have told you that we've put best efforts in to teach in as many possible ways as we can, and some children still aren't catching up. It's not that we don't want to teach them the material, but some of them just aren't getting it, or aren't ready (or don't care!). No matter WHAT teaching techniques we use. If you seriously have better ideas of how to get them to understand the work, then DO that. Publish the methods, start a tutoring business, spread the word.

Of course not all sets get taught the same material. I have year 10s who are still working on place value. Why teach them calculus at that stage? They won't understand it, and it takes teaching and practice time away from things like place value - which not only will be more useful to them in a practical way, but if they actually really do understand it, will serve as a foundation for them to go on with maths at later stage if they wanted to. I have had too many children forced to rote learn techniques for passing exams (using formula triangles or 'finger tricks' or some other memory tip) that they have no clue what it's about, and forget immediately. It's a performing trick to do it on the exam. I don't want to teach like that either. I'd rather teach them what they understand, and give them skills that they can progress from.

Sets are crude measures, of course. Not everyone can have a perfectly individualised curriculum, and there might be someone in a lower set who could have done certain topics at a bit more depth in a higher set, and misses out as a result. Or people are held back by the number of places in a classroom. It's not perfect. But that's partly what you get with an education system that teaches 30 children in a class.

Flightpaths are not things that restrict children. They are rough measures to determine if a child is not achieving what you might expect based on previous scores. No-one just leaves a child on their flightpath and says 'well there you go then'. If a child isn't achieving what might be expected of them, they will be noticed and given more help. If a child seem to be able to do better than the flightpath predicts, they will be encouraged and supported and given all possible help to do this - schools and teachers love when a child outstrips the statistical expectations. It is hugely to the school's benefit, as well as the child's! If there is any chance that the child can catch-up and show extra progress beyond the statistical predication, the school will support this and try to make this happen. They want the best results from every child. The flightpath is simply a way the government has of marking the school. It does not limit the school's ambitions for a child.

Obviously, there are terrible schools out there and you must have had some awful experiences. But this doesn't mean that most schools are like that!

Teachers genuinely want children to do well. They want the freedom to actually teach, rather than force children through exams that aren't suitable. They want to take children from where they are when they come to them, and have them leave with more. They want children to learn useful maths or English skills, that will help them in the workplace, as well as allow them to go on to study the things that the child shows talent in. Right now, there are all sorts of barriers to that - children who aren't able to pass the exams being forced to do resits instead of the higher courses in other subjects that they're capable of. Students who find exams difficult, but could show the knowledge in other ways, still have to do endless resits. Students who find the GCSE exams difficulty, but still have to do them, instead of other, perfectly good numeracy qualifications, because someone has decided that GCSE is the only acceptable one. Students who are forced to do harder GCSE exams in the first place, when they need time to consolidate basic information and could be doing a lower tier of GCSE that allows them to demonstrate their skills. Many teachers want a 3-level GCSE , many want a separate numeracy qualification. This doesn't mean that they don't want to teach those who aren't able to do the higher qualification - quite the opposite. They'd rather people learned the lower stuff thoroughly first, were allowed to leave if that was all they wanted to do, or allowed to progress if they then wanted to do higher levels.

Isentthesignal · 31/08/2018 10:04

Some teachers might be weak. But at least they are having a go. I find that a really depressing statement.

Piggywaspushed · 31/08/2018 10:10

teen, it seems to always happen. Someone ( usually aka noble !) starts a thought provking thread and then, after a while the conversation turns to : a) grammar schools (which on this thread is bizarre!) b) setting and ability groups c) teachers and their delusions of knowledge about the education system.

On Oxbridge threads, there is likewise always soemone who wants to smack someone down if they say it might be disproportionately harder for some students to gain access. The smackdowns and sneering on those threads are in another league.

It was ever thus! Grin

AlexanderHamilton · 31/08/2018 10:12

The problems Dd had in maths in Year 8 was when she wasn’t set. It simply wasn’t possible for the teachers to differentiate enough giving the lower ability kids the support they need alongside the higher ability kids all in one class. The range of abilities was too wide.

noblegiraffe · 31/08/2018 10:24

cake I said some don’t get maths and English GCSE because it’s not 30%, but I don’t know what the percentage is. 30%ish don’t get maths, 30%ish don’t get English and there will be a big overlap in that group but there are lots of kids who get one but not the other.
The tool for looking at combined results includes resits which drags results down massively.

You are aghast that my school enters our bottom set for a level 1 certificate as well as GCSE, as this confirms that we don’t expect them to get top grades - you really would understand this if you saw a bottom set lesson. The problem isn’t that they haven’t been taught the higher topics, but that they are still struggling to understand/remember the lower topics. Given that maths is hierarchical, with topics building on understanding of previous topics, you cannot move on and teach harder topics effectively with shaky foundations.

Re setting - my GCSE class last year got better results than the set above it. My class did Foundation, the next set did Higher. My class were taught fewer topics (because of the limits of Foundation) and did better than those taught more. Being taught more topics, being pushed into a higher set doesn’t automatically mean better grades. Being taught fewer topics well, and sitting an exam that you can actually access and that is appropriate for your level actually counts for a lot.

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MaisyPops · 31/08/2018 10:25

Isentthesignal
I agree. It's real children who are going to suffer because of years of poplar policy decisions and endless reforms to exams (one year there was an announcement that a company worth X% of the grade was now only worth y% and the exam weighting was increasing. This announcement was made a couple of months before the exam after students had worked really hard on it).

The rhetoric around teaching from the press, governments and the vocal I'm not a teacher but know best types create a a situation where the profession will struggle to attract talent.

Lool at it this way, X% will get above a 4. But if schools don't get good enough grades then they get a poor ofsted. But not all schools can have all 4+. And then schools are judged to be failing in an accountability system not every school can pass.

Meanwhile schools are doing their very best with the resources and staff they have to get as many students where they need to be.

Isentthesignal · 31/08/2018 10:33

my GCSE class last year got better results than the set above it. My class did Foundation, the next set did Higher. My class were taught fewer topics (because of the limits of Foundation) and did better than those taught more. Being taught more topics, being pushed into a higher set doesn’t automatically mean better grades. Being taught fewer topics well, and sitting an exam that you can actually access and that is appropriate for your level actually counts for a lot. Noble did you teach the set higher that year - the set that your Foundation class beat?

Isentthesignal · 31/08/2018 10:34

Sorry bold fail!

my GCSE class last year got better results than the set above it. My class did Foundation, the next set did Higher. My class were taught fewer topics (because of the limits of Foundation) and did better than those taught more. Being taught more topics, being pushed into a higher set doesn’t automatically mean better grades. Being taught fewer topics well, and sitting an exam that you can actually access and that is appropriate for your level actually counts for a lot. Noble did you teach the set higher that year - the set that your Foundation class beat?

AlexanderHamilton · 31/08/2018 10:37

As a parent that's pretty much what I want. for my children to be taught the topics well at a level appropriate for their ability and to sit an exam where they can access the majority of questions.

noblegiraffe · 31/08/2018 10:40

Cakes also keeps going on about GCSEs being ‘designed’ to fail 30%. They weren’t designed to do anything of the sort. Back when they first came in in 1993, the A-C pass rate for English was 57.3% and for maths was 46.3%. They were designed to measure students and see if they met a particular standard.

Over the years that standard has undoubtedly slipped, but also the exam has changed. Is the standard set by a 4 the same as a 1993 C? They don’t even measure the same things.

Comparable outcomes since 2012 means that GCSEs don’t even pretend to measure standards any more. The 9-4 rate for the new 9-1 GCSE was set by the A*-C pass rate for the old one, regardless of what the 2017 cohort could actually do.

Bearing that in mind, it is certainly time to look at what employers actually want when they say they want GCSE grade c/4+ and whether GCSE meets this. Functional skills probably meets this requirement. Rather than complaining that not allowing pupils to resit GCSE prices them out of the market place and that they should do this regardless of the probable outcome, the marketplace should look at GCSE and adjust their requirements.

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noblegiraffe · 31/08/2018 10:44

No, Isent.

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TeenTimesTwo · 31/08/2018 10:45

Some teachers might be weak. But at least they are having a go.

Isentthesignal I find that a really depressing statement.

In all jobs, there will be stronger / more able people and weaker / less able. Some doctors aren't very good compared with others. Some hotel receptionists aren't very good. 10% of teachers will be in the bottom 10% of teaching ability. My hope is that the department as a whole is strong enough to mitigate the weakness of it's least good person.

noble The problem isn’t that they haven’t been taught the higher topics, but that they are still struggling to understand/remember the lower topics

I totally agree. Yesterday I sat DD2 down to start to refresh basic maths before the start of term. She is going in to y9. She couldn't remember how to add fractions, and also thought there were 60p in a £. But this is the same DD who can also factorise simple quadratics quite competently at other times. The trick is to keep the basics going whilst doing harder topics.

AlexanderHamilton · 31/08/2018 10:47

Where I work we need different kids of maths depending on the job even.

Myself and my departmetn need money maths, fractions, percentages, that kind of things.

The plumbers, gas engineers, estimators need shapes, area, volumes, angles, calculating pressure etc.

Most of our lads on the tools didn't pass Maths & English at school. Many have since passed work related qualifications where they have to perform complicated mathematical calculations.

Isentthesignal · 31/08/2018 10:55

It’s often a close call for many students on the choice between Foundation and Higher. Noble I suspect you are an excellent maths teacher and that has made all the difference to the foundation kids.

Pieceofpurplev · 31/08/2018 10:57

Have followed the thread but not commented yet so here goes ...

This year my class were a really difficult bunch. Lots of behaviour problems, mental health issues, SEN and English as a foreign language. I worked my socks off with them staying running classes every week, holidays and Saturdays to ensure that they got the best options.
Half passes and half didn't. Less passes literature as the context is too much to learn. Some of these pupils will not pass how ever many times they resist.
Take A. A is a lovely lad - works hard and is polite and hardworking. A, however, has a really low reading age - he gets extra time because of this. To read the extracts in English takes him 30 minutes - he has an hour. He didn't reach the heights of a four as he didn't finish the paper. No amount of resits will fix this.

Why should kids like A have to keep going? He can read and write accurately and spell well. He will be able to fill in forms etc. Just not answer questions about a writer's purpose in a very long piece of text.

Isentthesignal · 31/08/2018 10:58

Yesterday I sat DD2 down to start to refresh basic maths before the start of term. She is going in to y9. And isn’t your dd lucky she has you to help her - the kids whose parents can’t provide support are totally reliant on the school and the system that frequently fails kids from uneducated backgrounds.

TeenTimesTwo · 31/08/2018 11:13

Yes DD2 is lucky she has me to help her. It hopefully means she will manage to make faster than expected progress whilst at secondary.

But schools can only do so much in the time they have with the resources they have.

I wandered onto the Michaela website the other day. Although some of it is OTT I can see where they are coming from. They really are trying to make every minute of the school day count, and using homework to reinforce skills.

noblegiraffe · 31/08/2018 11:13

Isent obviously I’d like to believe it was all down to my superior teaching Grin but I do think that the decision to enter the set above for higher was a major factor. Pushing them onto harder topics instead of concentrating on consolidating the easier ones didn’t actually end up with better results.

cakes seems to think that teachers should be powering through the syllabus regardless of whether that’s what the pupils need.

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Isentthesignal · 31/08/2018 11:18

I agree Noble but you are talking about kids who are taught all of the foundation paper - or did you leave bits of the foundation curriculum out too?

noblegiraffe · 31/08/2018 11:26

I did teach that group all of the foundation curriculum, they were a good group and I really pushed them.

But, when it came to revision, I didn’t revise the whole foundation curriculum with all of them. I’d taught all of them trigonometry, but very few of them had actually learned it. Some of them it was worth going over again, but some of them it definitely wasn’t.

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