Selective school exams - how bright does the child have to be?

[NKF]

I'm trying to get a sense of how clever a child needs to be to get into a selective state secondary school. Assume for the sake of argument, a fairly popular one with many applicants. Are we talking the sort of child who would get three grade 5s at key stage 2 without any extra coaching? Or with a small amount of coaching? Or a child with a particular kind of mind? I know that's a bit vague but I hope it makes sense.

Depends on the competition for places, NKF. For the pushy north London state grammar schools, 1200 applications for 90 places is not unusual, so it's fair to assume that three Level 5s is just the starting point. The head of HBS told me (I had to put a very direct question to her, several times, to get this answer!) that they were probably taking the top 1-2% of the ability range. But that's exceptional as there are very few selective schools in London, all of which have massive potential catchment areas, hence the huge numbers.

In all-grammar areas I think grammar schools are reckoned to take the top 25% or so.

Thanks Frogs. It's just so hard to get a real fix on the situation.

Any other thoughts?

just having my state school DS in year 5 at the mo assesed by a tutor this weekend to snswer that exact question!

Okay. That's interesting. I assumed there would be services like that. Have you got time to explain how that works. TIA

It depends on the area and also the birth rate for that year - also - there will be children sitting for state selective schools as back up for the independent ones that they are sitting and some who have no intention on going to the school even if they get a place because they are going private but think that exam practive is good ! I jest not.

Remember thought many schools are not just looking for high percentage - they are looking for an ability to reason, think independently etc which will come out in an interview.

I thought the selective state schools went purely on exam results and didn't hold interviews.

She does a one hour assesment, then sees me ans dh for an hour and talks us through his strengths and weaknesses and what school would suit him. She will then tutor him in any wek areas and pracitce papers with him from sept to dec next year if needed

I'm not sure that's true everywhere...

Anyway you DC current school should be able to give you guidance - they've seen many children and know what sort fit in where.

NKF - how old is your child?

I would agree with Frogs and say 3 level 5s with no extra coaching is only the starting point.

this guide is good as a starting point, and includes some self-administered 30 min tests, which assess their current working level.

11+ and similar tests are really very difficult compared to SATs.

Do you have an idea in your mind of her abilities and what school might suit?

Beware the tutoring root - I know too many little girls tutored hard to get into a high flying girls school in our area who just could not hack it when they got there ...miserable as sin and slowly moving on to pastures new.

I say tutor to give them the ability to answer questions, be familiar with the style of questions but beware cramming.

Thanks for that Roisin.

I know that SATS and 11+ are very different. I mentioned SATS really to have some kind of objective measurement. After all, lots of kids are bright but won't get into the selective schools. I'm just trying to get a handle on what level, what type of child, what type of school etc. Thanks again. Very helpful.

I think a bright child who has been well-taught at primary school and has done a moderate amount of preparation should be fine. If they require more tutoring than that, I think parents should be asking themselves whether the selective school is actually the right place for that child. Getting in is only the beginning -- the children are very competitive with each other, even at dd1's school which is not exceptionally selective because they only take Catholics. They're quite nice about the competition, iyswim, but it can't be much fun being the person who consistently gets Cs when loads of your friends are getting A and A+.

The preparation you need also depends on what type of exam the school are using. If there is an essay-type question or a non-multiple choice comprehension, then a children from anything other than a v. pushy primary will probably need a little gentle bringing up to speed, as the stuff they get in primary schools is pretty unsophisticated, and the NC ddoesn't offer much scope for extended writing. For the maths, some extra input is def. advisable whether the questions are multi-choice or not, as IME the exams tend to ask questions that go beyond what most primary schools will cover (HBS had a question on factorials!). VR and NVR you can't really cram for, but a child who hasn't had a bit of practice would be at a significant disadvantage, as there's a bit of a knack to them. But you don't need a tutor -- it's nothing you can't do at home in a few half hour sessions a few times a week with some workbooks.

Another big difference is the time pressure. DS1 always finishes everything at school - classwork and tests, and has never had the remotest bit of 'time pressure'. When we first looked at 11+ material I was astonished at how fast they have to process the answers, and how much they have to get through.

One more question (I think) at what stage would you think it's reasonable to start preparing the child?

The book I recommended earlier suggests 12 months' preparation.

If you are looking at 11+ or other tests with NVR and VR you can get NVR test papers for all different ages (from 7 I think) if you want to accustom a child to the concept of these tests.

It depends what the situation is, and where competing students are coming from. DS1 will be applying to an independent school - I certainly have no intention to do cramming with him or to pay a tutor - but he is bright and it would be financially desirable if he were to get a scholarship, and the children from the independent primary school do these sorts of tests all the time. So it's essential to do some preparation as Frogs said to accustom him to the types of questions, teach him to look out for the short-cuts and speedy methods, and generally ensure he's on a level playing field with children from different backgrounds.

"For the pushy north London state grammar schools, 1200 applications for 90 places is not unusual...taking the top 1-2% of the ability range. But that's exceptional as there are very few selective schools in London, all of which have massive potential catchment areas, hence the huge numbers."

Ditto in Birmingham. There are so many kids trying to get in that it is a very close call - a fraction of a percent either way can decide if you get in or not. It is all purely on the exam, no interviews. Their current trick seems to be trying to weed people out by time pressure.

As far as the OP goes: they do not select on 'cleverness' but, rather, the ability to shine in exams (especially in GCSE league tables in five years' time). Not necessarily the same thing.

NKF -- the earlier you start doing little bits of maths and English, the gentler it can be. Just in terms of making sure that they really understand what they're doing in class and for a little extra consolidation.

Specific exam practice, with VR and NVR, I'd say no earlier than a year before, and only very little bits of practice. It is actually mind-numbingly boring once the novelty of the puzzle-like aspect wears off, so you don't want them completely turned off by it.

Thank you everyone. I'll definitely get that book and small amounts of preparation over a longish period certainly appeals more than a short burst of heavy duty cramming.

Check out elevenplusexams.co.uk (sorry can't do links . The actual exams taken vary from area to area and this site explains the different arrangements for each region (11+ Regions). There is also a useful forum where you can post questions about exam preparation, schools, etc.

YAY - DID IT!!