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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Private School Worth It?

164 replies

beantltc · 29/04/2018 15:58

Would like to know an adult's opinion on private school and if you think it is worth the money compared to normal schools.

OP posts:
Lookingforspace · 07/05/2018 15:15

I don’t know but they say home, especially the level of education held by a child’s mother is the greatest indication of how well that child will do. So I grew up on a council estate with holes in my clothes and shoes but with a mother who read to me or with me every day. I don’t know if that made a difference to my choices and aspirations.

Astronotus · 07/05/2018 15:31

minifingerz. You said "Nobody who uses private schools can claim to believe in the principle of equality of opportunity for children or the idea of a meritocracy."
I have no idea how many types of schools you have experienced. I was of the same opinion until my family experienced the following: state, state grammar and independent. Seeing this institutions from the inside has been interesting, informative and sadly, at times, alarming. I absolutely believe in equal opportunity for all children. It just doesn't exist. It is a pipe dream. A pipe dream that will never materialise. Especially under the present regime.
Lookingforspace. You are completely correct, it is the children who are not the brightest and/or the wealthiest who suffer. Our grammar school system only helps a small proportion of pupils and in leafy boroughs they are (as we found in our case) dominated by wealthy parents who can afford expensive homes within the catchment. Many of the parents at our grammar were much wealthier than us. Many had holiday homes, some boats and many expensive holidays. They were mainly professionals and extremely involved in the school. 99% had tutored their DC to get places.

Why should poorer children get less opportunity than those grammar school children? Why should they have less opportunity than my children?

Xenia · 07/05/2018 15:58

I think it's unfair just to pick on schools. My son had a good private educate and drives Ocado trucks. Whilst it is true a fgood state school whether a good comprensive or grammar or secondary modern or a good private school or even just a very good teacher in any school can make a huge difference to your life lots of other things can too like your genes, how things are at home, if you get beaten up at home or abused and all the rest.

The fact some parents like I am pay school fees for say day schools whereas Gove, Cameron and Blair game the system by picking religious state schools is not too different from a parent reading to a child at night - yes it;'s unfair some of us get parents who do that and others don't or one parent feeds a child well and the other stuffs it with sugar and junk food but I don't think private schools are in some kind of special category of wickedness. They are no more unfair than someone moving to Bucks for state grammars there or moving out of the Sunderland my mother's family are from to Surrey because they want a different peer group for their children just as it's not fair some parents stay in a Syrian refugee camp and others buy or force their way into a land where they might do better. There is no shortage of unfairness around.

Kettlepotblack · 07/05/2018 16:25

Exactly Xenia. Inequality is everywhere you turn, it's woven in to the very fabric of our society. To act holier than thou because you (no one personally) are anti private is in many cases often hypocritical. Arguably, going to church for what can sometimes be years, when you wouldn't ordinarily, just to get your child into a certain religious state school with a good name happens frequently, moving house into expensive catchments, being an informed, educated middle class parent generally is an advantage. Where exactly is the appropriate level of unfairness? Attending a leafy Home Counties state will arguably not be the same experience as attending one in inner London. State school does not automatically equal equality.

My husband and I will both be working full time if we decide to go the private route. I will still be earning that money if I don't send him independent - I could spend it on tutors, or give him the deposit for a house - is this 'fairer' then? As I said, we moved house partly to get him into a good primary - is this acceptable?

The state school system is geared toward the middle classes. Whatever happens, they will use it to their advantage. It's not bloody fair. I wish things were different. As I said in a a previous post, they are nothing but exam factories, creating stressed out, often mentally ill young people (and teachers) who have lost out on creativity and individuality. It's all shit and to make sweeping generalisations that those that are able to take a different route 'don't care' about inequality and can't call themselves meritocratic is very black and white and ignorant.

sendsummer · 07/05/2018 19:22

Undoubtedly, the children who get the rough end of the stick are those that are neither wealthy nor bright.
I grew up on a council estate with holes in my clothes and shoes but with a mother who read to me or with me every day
Lookingforsoace I would qualify your first statement by adding 'and unsupported educationally by parents.'
There are countless examples in the UK of economically poor immigrant families whose middling ability DCs do rather well at school due to the parental support and ambitions for them . These DCs also still remain part of a community. Other ethnic groups including some poor white British may not place as much importance on educational achievement though.

TalkinPeece · 07/05/2018 20:56

To get back to the OP's question

RATHER THAN THE ARGUMENT THAT THE REST OF US HAVE REHASHED WITHOUT RESULT FOR MANY YEARS

It really depends on

  • the child
  • your options
  • the child
  • your family circumstances
  • the child

all else is just bitchiness

roundaboutthetown · 07/05/2018 21:07

Private or state, they are just schools at the end of the day. There is a lot more to a child's life, education and growing up than school. Provided your child is reasonably well educated and happy at school (this bit, at least, is important), there are frankly lots of other ways to spend your time and money than obsessing about schools as though they are the be all and end all of a child's life experience, education and future success. As for those who witter on about prioritising education and therefore being willing to live in poverty so their children can go to the best private schools - more fool you, imo, if you think that is the only way to ensure your children are well educated, well adjusted, well rounded and successful human beings. You are not prioritising education, you are prioritising a school, which is not so very different imvho to prioritising a top of the range car - lots more expensive than necessary for an overall package which has lots of unnecessary features you don't make full use of anyway, but makes some people feel good about themselves to know they are there - which is fine if easily afforded, but looks a bit foolish to outsiders who do not share your obsession with unnecessary features.

user149799568 · 07/05/2018 21:28

stateschoolparent - as you probably know a recent study showed that "the 7% difference in performance on GCSE results between selective schools (private and grammar) and comprehensives was almost entirely explained by differences in the ability and family income of the pupils.

I am familiar with that study. My main criticism of it is that the sample they used for "selective" schools included the 168 grammars and a little over 500 independents, i.e., all of them. While it is, of course, true that independents are very selective on ability to pay, I feel that it would have been more informative to have combined the grammars with the highly academically selective independents. As it is, given the weights in its sample, the results in that study more reflect financial selection than academic selection. Given that it may be impossible to classify "highly academically selective" independents, I would have liked to see the results for just the grammars to see what the numbers were for academic selection alone.

There is no doubt in my mind that most of the difference in raw scores between pupils in academically or financially selective schools and pupils in fully comprehensive schools can be explained by parental circumstances and prior achievement (which is also strongly correlated with parental circumstances, thus making it very difficult to disentangle the effects). However, I am not aware of any study that credibly demonstrates that attending an academically selective school has statistically zero effect on pupil achievement.

user149799568 · 07/05/2018 21:46

Talkinpeece - The government formally classifies Dame Alice Owen's school as a comprehensive. You're making up your own definitions if you're going to exclude faith schools, single-sex schools and schools which prioritize limited numbers of "talented" pupils.

Btw, what do you mean, date of birth only? Afaik, the vast majority of schools use distance for their oversubscription criteria, with only a few going to lottery.

That said, I was clear that DAO takes up to 37.5% of its pupils on a selective basis. It does take at least 62.5% of its pupils on distance. Even if all of its 1.7% FSM eligible children came from the "non-selective" portion, that would only represent 2.7% of those pupils. The average independent school provides more full bursary/scholarship combinations than that.

DAO is one of the worst "comprehensive" secondaries in terms of having few FSM eligible pupils. But, as a PP pointed out, I could list hundreds of primaries with 0-3% FSM eligible pupils.

xenia is absolutely correct that (to paraphrase Theresa May) the state system allocates good school places by house price.

TalkinPeece · 07/05/2018 21:54

user149799568
The government formally classifies Dame Alice Owen's school as a comprehensive.
The school itself does not ....
link please to where the Government does ?

You're making up your own definitions if you're going to exclude faith schools, single-sex schools and schools which prioritize limited numbers of "talented" pupils.
Really?
Any school that selects
by gonads
by god
by "aptitude"
is not "comprehensive"
how hard is that to comprehend ..... ?

Comprehensive schools do not in any way select their kids
they take whatever comes through the door
its incredibly simple

TalkinPeece · 07/05/2018 21:56

the state system allocates good school places by house price
Link please
name the comp school with no social housing in its catchment
and no B&B in its catchment

roundaboutthetown · 07/05/2018 22:01

Maybe in large towns and cities - but in smaller towns and more rural areas where there are only one or two secondary schools, how does the state system allocate good school places by house price? People generally just send their children to the local school or pay private school fees, surely? You can only get marked differences in intake in more metropolitan areas or areas with a selective system, surely?

CalF123 · 07/05/2018 22:18

This isn't intended to sound superior or haughty, but what I think has has the biggest impact on DS since we moved him from state to private hasn't been the teaching or facilities, but his classmates.

His old school wasn't awful by any means, but he was surrounded by people in his friend group and year who weren't the most motivated when it comes to education. Now, he's surrounded by hard-working, ambitious fellow pupils and I think that work ethic has really rubbed off on him. He's gone from a boy who had to be cajoled into doing any homework at all into someone who's now doing 4 hours revision every school night and 10 hours on weekends/holidays for his GCSEs.

I think a large part of that is down to his friends' work ethic and not wanting to be 'left behind'.

user149799568 · 07/05/2018 22:31

TalkinPeece
Dame Alice Owen's School "Admissions policy: Comprehensive (secondary)"

Similarly, JFS, aka Jewish Free School and The Camden School for Girls.

Perhaps you could learn something about terminology in a field before you start throwing it around.

user149799568 · 07/05/2018 22:49

roundaboutthetown - You can only get marked differences in intake in more metropolitan areas or areas with a selective system, surely?

You may be right about the situation in rural areas. But <a class="break-all" href="http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160105224826/www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/census/2011-census-analysis/rural-urban-analysis/comparing-rural-and-urban-areas-of-england-and-wales.html#tab-Rural-and-urban-populations-in-2011" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">ONS classifies 81.5% of the UK population as living in urban areas so it's still a rather big issue.

user149799568 · 07/05/2018 22:54

TalkinPeece

Theresa May October 2016 "We also have to recognise that in this country we have selection, but it is selection by house price and ability to pay."

Astronotus · 07/05/2018 23:13

roundaboutthetown. You comment "As for those who witter on about prioritising education and therefore being willing to live in poverty so their children can go to the best private schools - more fool you."

Er, I never said I was living in poverty. I was making the point that many parents use their wealth differently, in the case I stated, buying a house in the catchment of a state grammar school and tutoring their DC to get in. Free education with a little outlay. You could say they have better financial management of their affairs!

You also said "(private education) makes some people feel good about themselves to know they are there - which is fine if easily afforded, but looks a bit foolish to outsiders who do not share your obsession with unnecessary features."

In our case I would say that a few of those unnecessary features are qualified teachers, textbooks, a million other paper resources, a sports field that has not been sold off by the local council and classes of less than 35. Remember I did say I had experienced other state options. Perhaps we were just unlucky. Or perhaps we were experiencing the effect of extremely tight budgets.

Kettlepotblack · 08/05/2018 07:40

What are the 'unnecessary features' of a private school?

roundaboutthetown · 08/05/2018 08:57

Astronotus - what makes you think I was specifically addressing you? As for unnecessary features of top private schools - the huge array of sporting opportunities and facilities if your child does not happen to be sporty, the inflated extra cost of musical instrument lessons (the same teachers teach outside lessons to private students for less), the myriad of things on offer your child does not partake in. It's lovely to know they are there, on offer, to experience others using them, to see what can be done, to know you could join in if you gave up something else or had the ability, but for a lot of it, you are really just paying to know it is there and to have it all under one roof. Obviously there are cheaper private schools, but I was specifically not referring to those. And if you have huge wealth, why not? Otherwise - why??? It's an astronomically expensive way of trying to ensure you have all bases covered for your child's advancement and education and somewhat putting all your eggs in one basket if you are not hugely wealthy.

Kettlepotblack · 08/05/2018 09:10

Roundabout town - aren't they called 'opportunities'? Why is this 'unnecessary'? Many of those things will be extra cost, not included within the cost. And yes, sporting facilities could include outdoor space, which could be used in a number of ways, that IS, in my view, part of the learning environment generally and yes you pay for that, I suspect many parents know this and deem it worth it.

It's sad that these things are now seen as 'extras' and 'unnecessary ' because they have been cut from state schools. It's these schools that now have the minimum - so for many parents is about what state schools now DONT have, rather than what Private schools do have.

Xenia · 08/05/2018 12:29

roundabout, you would laugh at one of my sons then. At prep school his teacher said he might be cleve rbut as he had never spoken in class he might as well have been doing a correspondence course and he has never been a "joiner". I couldn't even persuade them on to the school ski trip. Then there was the school polo team - no, nothing, just a very happy not joining in just about anything boy and I was more than happy with that too - every child is different.

Also there is choice - some private schools are cheaper and have fewer facilities and clubs and parents do choose accordingly.

My childrenb's father teaches music and I do a lot. I have never seen private instrumental teachers in 20 years charging more for lessons in school than out of school actually although of course it could happen. In our schools the teacher invoices the pupil's parents so there is not any kind of mark up either and if the child wants extra lessons in holidays I have never seen price differences although on a free market people can charge what they like.

Lookingforspace · 08/05/2018 13:38

My daughter is at the grammar school and our FSM is a shocking 1.4%! But then our comp is only 5%.

The state primary schools closest to me are listed as 0%, 0.4% and 1.4% FSMs! How can anyone argue that state schools are not selecting via house price.

Lookingforspace · 08/05/2018 13:40

And I know the figures from the comprehensive reflect the fact that they take children from out of area due to so many local children either using the grammars or paying fees.

stateschoolparent · 08/05/2018 16:16

User 149 there have been numerous studies into private schools over the years over the years in the UK and overseas. For example:

In 2011, the OECD analysed the results from PISA and found that while students who attend private schools tend to perform better than students who attend public ones, this was primarily because these students tend to come from higher socio-economic status families. It concluded that “students in public schools in a similar socio-economic context as private schools tend to do equally well” and that “there is no evidence to suggest that private schools help to raise the level of performance of the school system, as a whole.”

In 2014, a very large survey in the US by two researchers from the University of Illinois (contained in a well known book called The Public[i.e. state] School Advantage) also concluded that the higher scores found at U.S. private schools occur largely because their students tend to come from privileged backgrounds, and once those backgrounds are taken into account, state schools perform at least as well and often better than private ones.

After that survey the Canadian government’s national statistical agency Statistics Canada reported that the same trend also applied to Canadian schools. Looking at over 7,000 students from close to 1,200 schools across Canada, it found that those who attended private schools had better academic outcomes, but that this was primarily because “students who attended private high schools were more likely to have socio-economic characteristics positively associated with academic success and to have school peers with university-educated parents. There was little evidence that the success of these students was the result of attending schools with better resources or higher quality instruction.”

I seem to recall that there was a UK study of middle class children at rough inner city comps a while ago that found a surprising percentage of them (15%) got into Oxbridge although I don’t know whether this was because of contextual offers (i.e. where they are compared by Oxford/Cambridge with other pupils in their schools) . I couldn’t find the study but it is also referred to in the below article from the Guardian a few years ago.

GUARDIAN ARTICLE
Comprehensive education tends to get scapegoated for all the ills of society, so perhaps I shouldn't be surprised by today's intervention by Richard Walden, the chairman of the Independent Schools Association. This champion of the privately educated – and Britain's new moral arbiter – suggests that state education is responsible for the country "turning out too many amoral children".
The cynic will look around the cabinet table and query whether private schools are all equipping their students "with the moral compass they need for life", as he puts it.
But his phraseology taps into a long-established fear shared by some of the parents of the 7% of British children sent to private schools. Many of them splash out on their children's education to keep them away from those they regard as less desirable children of other parents. Comps are the domain of feral kids with flickknives on a ceaseless war against anybody who wants to learn, or so the myth goes.
It's a shame, because children from well-off backgrounds who do go to comps thrive: one study looking at a sample of middle-class kids at inner-city comps found they "performed brilliantly", and 15% of them went to Oxbridge. According to the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), there is little difference in the performance of state schools and private schools when you take into account the child's background. "Much of the advantage that comes from private schooling is confirmed by the social-economic context, not necessarily in value added," as the OECD put it.
That said, there are some sensible points in Walden's speech at the ISA conference, even if his focus on "traditional" values (whatever they mean in practice) is a distraction. He says there is a lack of extracurricular activities in state schools, and the relentless obsession with exams and league tables was damaging students' wellbeing. He's right: schools shouldn't be factory farms, where children are driven from exam to exam, and where the curriculum is narrow and taught unimaginatively. Education should be geared to ensure our schools build well-rounded children. Michael Gove's "neo-Victorian" approach to education will not achieve that. Our children are among the most over-examined in the western world, and yet it is not reflected in our results.
Indeed, what politicians really need to address is the fact British children lag other countries in wellbeing; that there is an 18-month gap in vocabulary between affluent and poor 5-year-olds, requiring far more resources for early-years education; that poverty, poor diet, and low-quality and overcrowded housing all damage children's ability to thrive academically as well as socially.
We should learn from the success of the London Challenge, which encouraged collaborative working with London schools. Instead, we have a relentless, obsessive tinkering with structures, not least the resource-hogging failure that are free schools. As ever, it's our children who suffer.

roundaboutthetown · 08/05/2018 16:41

Kettlepotblack - of course outdoor space is necessary. However, there is a difference between facilities for cricket, tennis, netball and football, for example, and having a rifle range, boating lake and fencing teacher. As for music lessons - I am 100% certain they are cheaper outside the schools from the same teachers, as music is a big part of my family's life and was of my childhood. Money saved on private school fees was very happily spent on music lessons, bands, choirs and orchestras, and lots of subsidised travel and courses via county orchestras and choirs. To have spent that money on school fees might, ironically, have meant less of what I enjoyed and more watching other people enjoying it instead of me... I have known families cripple themselves financially to access schools which provide amazing facilities for their children, most of which went unused, especially all the "extras" - at the expense of their own retirement savings and health. It may be fine to shrug it all off when you are very wealthy, but it doesn't look so great when the self-same people now live very diminished lives in very poor health and their children don't visit them (and you happen to know the available state schools provided an excellent education, so were not the sort of schools that most parents would avoid if they could). Still, their choice. Still reminds me of buying a top of the range car you don't need and don't make full use of, though!!!

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