Private School Worth It?

[beantltc]

Would like to know an adult's opinion on private school and if you think it is worth the money compared to normal schools.

The study everyone keeps referring to is basically saying that state schools aren’t as good at getting kids to reach their potential so whilst it is regularly being used to ask what the point of private schooling is, in actual fact it’s also giving you the answer. It states that if you look at 2 students with the same Alevel grades, one from each sector, the one from the state sector will often get better degree results. What some people aren’t seeing in the research is that it’s telling you that the state educated kid with ABB is actually cleverer than the privately educated kid with ABB but their grades are the same because the state educated kid didn’t reach their potential. So their degree marks are more in line with the private school kid who got Alevels AAB or maybe AAA because they are as clever as them but unlike them they didn’t get the opportunity to achieve to their potential.

So it’s not saying that state school kids do better, but rather they do better that they were ie they’re now reaching their potential.

Lookingforspace its not as simple as that as private schools are much better at manipulating the exam system. This takes a number of forms including :

1. Outright cheating by doing coursework or giving advance notice of the contents of an exam as witnessed by last year's scandal at three top private schools (which is likely to be just the tip of the iceberg )
2. A much higher percentage of pupils in private schools being given extra time due to being diagnosed with dyslexia or other learning disorders .The exams watchdog Ofqual suggested the difference could be because private schools are more' willing' to find students entitled to more exam time but the system has undoubtedly been abused by some schools (no names mentioned but I can think of one or two).
3. Private schools being far more likely to appeal exam results.

IMO people are blinded by the results of a few super selective private schools but outside say the top 40 schools the actual education provided by most private schools is now relatively poor value for money given the fees being charged which is why many former private school parents (myself included) go state and top up with private tutors instead. There are a couple of reasons for the vast fee increases, the first being that the schools appear to be obsessed with having the best facilities as if they were hotels rather than educational establishments. At some schools there seem to be permanent building works going on! Secondly the more rigorous requirement for private schools to demonstrate a public benefit is in my view a nonsense as they are clearly providing a public benefit by saving the state £6000 pa per child and providing employment/ educational choice/diversity of subjects studied etc etc. However some schools feel they need to show a public benefit by making bursaries available out of current parents' fees rather than out of reserves/donations which of course pushes fees up even more out of reach of normal MC families.

Actually private education or state is a tricky question. My daughter who was a shy , undetermined girl entered private boarding at 11 and will come out a more aware and determined.

To be honest some of her teachers were inspiring. She loves History as her first year teacher created that inspiration for her. Which I am particularly happy with. In her GCSE she had a fantastic teacher. Yes we are a stereotypical Asian family. So my daughter is expected to do well in the STEM subjects. I disagree with many comments that private kids are spoon fed. My daughter has a horrendous physics teacher for GCSE and she has had to go to another teacher for help and use other study aids. Hopefully she will pass.
Originally the ethos of the school was what we wanted. A nice school not academically brilliant but caring able to bring the best out of my daughter. The head left and the ethos changed. So parents be aware even if you find the school that best fits your daughter it may not last.
If you are talking connections you will make friends but I think my family connections would work better for my daughter than any she had made at school.
So what did private offer that state didn't? A safe environment for a shy girl. Did she enjoy it?

*stateschoolparent", how exactly do private schools abuse the extra time issue?
I've recently had cause to read through the entire JEC guidelines and the application process for extra time and other access arrangements seems quite involved.

DSs private school tests the whole cohort on entry to the school and again at 6th form. Some parents of new 6 form entrants are shocked when they discover their child has been flagged up for quaoifiying for extra time as they had no idea beforehand. This would imply that not every school tests quite so rigorously. This is not cheating or even manipulating but would result in a higher number of pupils having extra time.

Some private schools might “cheat” but I bet some state schools do too.

I went to private school, my brother went to a Grammar and my sister to a comp. We all ended up with the same higher education outcomes and roughly career success. (Very different fields).

I wish my parents had put the money they spent on my school in a savings fund for their care now they are elderly and frail, or Uni / housing funds for their grandchildren.

(None of us are rich, we are scruffy middle class, never had kitchen or bathroom ‘done ‘ )

Some private schools might “cheat” but I bet some state schools do too.

They absolutely do, as I can attest from personal experience. I am awaiting this year's GCSE results at our local secondary with interest, now that they are no longer able to massively cheat on coursework.

I have been happy to pay and it was worth it and am glad my parents did.

i have never come across cheating in any private schools mine might go to. i would rather they utterly failed than there were the slightest hint of the cheating of any kind. I would not like it suggested most private school children get good results because of cheating as I don't think that is the norm. Also the extra time thing has utterly changed in the last few years so much so that my son's school said there was not even any point in applying for it even though he probably should have had it.

On appeals you can get a lower mark on an appeal so it's quite a risky business. Not something you do and are sure of a higher grade by any means.

Just pick what you prefer if you can afford it. I was happy to pay and plenty of full time working women who could afford fees are more than happy with local state schools. that's fine. We live in country with some choices.

There are lots of reasons I feel it was worth paying fees. I paid my last set last summer but am choosing to fund the children at unviersity without debt so it is not the end of the road yet......

Xenia/Kestrel-of course some state schools cheat as well (especially in coursework) although individual state school teachers don't have the same incentive as those at private schools to go the extra mile. Private school teachers are under great pressure to obtain the highest grades for their pupils and the schools implicated in cheating last year included Eton and Winchester where you wouldn't have thought the pupils needed extra help. And if its going on at top schools like these what do you think is happening at schools which don't have the same pulling power? In fact private school exam cheating has a long history -even in my day there was one teacher who was well known for 'tips' on what might come up in the MFL oral exams.By coincidence this was exactly what allegedly happened a couple of years ago at another well known private school (Queens Gate) when according to the press a teacher "gave the A-level French class the questions that would be asked at the oral exams. The girls were told to prepare model answers, which were corrected by staff, and told to learn them by heart."

Floottoot -private schools cheat by encouraging pupils to get assessed by private 'educational psychologists' etc who are well aware that they are being paid/have a business incentive to provide a particular diagnosis. The problem is increasing as the article from the Telegraph a few months ago I am pasting below indicates. Some friends in one well known local private school even attributed their DC's relatively poor exam results to the fact that almost everyone else had had extra time.

2017 ARTICLE

The number of children getting extra time in their exams has risen by 36 per cent in the past four years, official figures show, as teachers are accused of bending the rules by claiming increasing numbers of students are "special needs".

Now one in six of all GCSE and A-level candidates are awarded 25 per cent extra time for their exams, according to Ofqual.
Critics say the figures “make a mockery” of the system and undermine credibility in public examinations.
Ofqual acknowledged that the use of extra time has increased in recent years, adding that disabled students are “entitled to a reasonable adjustment”.
However, the exam watchdog said there was widespread variation in the proportion of students at particular schools and colleges who are granted extra time.
They said they intend to contact centre which make abnormally high or low applications for extra time, and encourage them to review their approach.
Last year, 223,405 students were granted extra time to complete their exams, compared to 164,390 in 2013/14. Schools can apply to the Joint Council for Qualifications (JCQ) to request extra time for a student on a variety on grounds. These include learning difficulties, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) or a mental health condition .
Professor Alan Smithers, director of the education and employment centre at the University of Buckingham, said: “Extra time does confer an advantage. As parents and schools have become more aware that extra time can be claimed and that more and more candidates are getting it, more are trying for it.”
He added that requesting extra time is “an open goal for both pushy parents and pushy schools”.

Chris McGovern, director of the Campaign for Real Education and a former Government advisor, said the figures "make a mockery" of the system and "and undermines credibility and belief” in public examinations.

"It is out of all proportion – the fact is that a sixth of the children in the country do not have special needs,” he said. “We have redefined it as if you have pushy parents you are special needs".

An Ofqual spokesperson said: “The use of extra time in GCSE and A level exams has increased in recent years. Disabled students are entitled to a reasonable adjustment when taking their exams and it is important that appropriate adjustments are made for them.
“We have looked at the proportion of students at individual schools and colleges in England who are given extra time. Some have relatively high numbers of approvals compared with the average, and some have very few.

The rules definitely did change. I was told the psychologist's report was not the key thing any more but instead tests at school and views of your teachers in the school. I suppose that might have made it easier not harder to get extra time although not in our case.

If there is cheating - which I have not seen in private schools who play up " play up and play the game" even if you get zero in everything and get thrown out for being an idle slacker - then I suppose a paying parent might regard that as even more reason to pay fees. I would certainly not pay feels if there were cheating going on. As 100% of the children from my son's private school who applied failed to get into Oxbridge and no one got above B in my son's university subject in his whole year I don't think there can be much cheating going on that school somehow... laughing I type.

Lack of course work is a good thing as it's all down to the exam. Given less credit for people suffering illness or deaths might help too as those things can sometimes be faked.

Private school is only an option for the richest 15% of the population
and half of them choose not to use it.

I was sent to private school because at the time and where I grew up the State options were pretty awful.

My kids went state because
(a) I could not afford private
(b) the state options round here are great and stress free

There are lots of kids at private schools in this county - many of them boarders who do not come from round here.

BUT
To answer the Op's question
IT DEPENDS ON THE INDIVIDUAL CHILD

Xenia-I would have thought that allowing tests at school and teacher's reports to determine who gets extra time would make it even easier to get extra time as parents wouldn't even have to pay for outside' help'.

I agree people may see cheating as even more of a reason to go private. As you say the reduction in coursework may reduce it to some extent but in fact the recent private school cases have involved giving pupils advance knowledge of exam questions rather than coursework (where it is very hard to prove cheating).

Re Oxbridge I think that historically only pretty selective private schools have decent admission rates i.e after the top 40 private schools the Oxbridge admission rate tends to fall below 15% of pupils. And its likely to fall even further as the pressure to give more 'contextual offers' increases. I am actually convinced my DC now have got a better Oxbridge chance applying from a state school than they would in a private school where things are getting tougher unless you are doing a subject with not much competition (classics, MFL etc).Indeed somewhat to my surprise even our local comp seems to be getting an increasing number of Oxbridge offers.

even in my day there was one teacher who was well known for 'tips' on what might come up in the MFL oral exams. By coincidence this was exactly what allegedly happened a couple of years ago at another well known private school.........The girls were told to prepare model answers, which were corrected by staff, and told to learn them by heart."

This would never happen in a state school

For me, paying for private schools would have been an utter waste of money. DS had autism and was supported as his large state school. He is now doing his first (and only) choice of highly-specific university course.

DD was a hard worker and did really well academically at the same school. She had lots of opportunities to become involved in sports and clubs and attended many inter-school events and competitions, as well as having lots of opportunities to perform musically. I'm not sure any private school could have bettered her experience. She's now in her first choice of course in her first choice RG Uni.

I would have spent thousands of pounds for no added value. I also used to come across privately educated kids (from different schools) in some of my DC's clubs and they were always the loud, braying, undisciplined ones. I wouldn't have paid money to produce that sort of behaviour.

stateschoolparent If you think state school teachers aren't under huge pressure to get "grades" for their pupils, you are very wrong. It doesn't matter whether that pressure is to bring an A up to an A* or a D up to a C, the incentive and the pressure is the same. This pressure, and the bullying from SLT that results from it, is one of the reasons why there is a recruitment crisis in teaching, and why so many teachers have breakdowns, quit and swear they will never go back. Teacher blogs and twitter are full of discussions about this. So is the "staffroom" board here.

Clavinova Indeed. This has been going on in state schools too for years.

I always think these threads are interesting but the bottom line is for those with a choice just exercise the choice that feels right for you. i am h appy having paid fees and stateschoolparent is happy not having paid fees- so we are both two happy bunnies; no losers, all happy. If some think private schools are a waste of money and private school aprents conversely are happy to pay then that's all good.

Also it is very hard to generalise. I can from a very small non academic private school in the NE of England and I really don't think I had any help into jobs in London. in fact reading my 1981/82 diary last night it was terribly hard to get a job. Nor can I see a way you can easily get past the best law firms' fairly objective graduate recruitment processes - you start off with a computer looking at your UCAS points, marks in year 1 in your university exams etc etc, then you get some HR person making sure all is fair, a genuine desire to recruit the very brightest people, the demands of clients to have a fair spread of different people, annual requirement to publish statistics on number who went to private school within law firms etc etc and the many many very good state schools in the SE from Henrietta Barnett to Hills Road Cambs, from posh comps to all the state religious schools which do so well - compare those against any school private or state in the NE where I am from the issue seems more to be about regions v London than class or school fees.

However they are certainly interesting issues and worth discussing.#

State school selection by house price in a posh comp area is argually morally more deficient than relieving the state of the cost of supporting the 500,000 children at private schools when you can afford it and pay school fees.

There's a bit of nonsense on here about testing for extra time. DD, now in year 10, has just been assessed again, having been borderline dyslexic in year 6/7. The tests were done by a teacher at her (independent) school but following a strict set of tests, not open to individual interpretation. She scored average so is not eligible for extra time. Simple and straightforward

"State school selection by house price in a posh comp area is argually morally more deficient than relieving the state of the cost of supporting the 500,000 children at private schools when you can afford it and pay school fees."

Find me any comprehensive anywhere in the country which not only has no poor and low achieving children, but guarantees it will never have any poor and low achieving children.

Because that's what you get with private schools.

In any case, the argument is that privately educated children go on from their ivory towers to a disproportionately high proportion of jobs in the judiciary and politics, where they have undue influence over the lives of others raised in the real world.

Private schools exist to perpetuate privilege, which they do pretty effectively.

Posh comps and good comps are not always the same thing.

Out in regional suburbs where all the housing in ‘catchment ‘ is ‘posh’ you may Well get good results, reflecting a well supported cohort, and a school people regard as civilised.

In many areas of inner city, S London near me, you get excellent schools but the area is still considered ‘rough’ and House prices are not as inflated as elsewhere. Social housing residents get great comps here.

We are seriously considering independent school for my son. For me my experiences as a teacher in state school have no doubt shaped my decision. It has nothing to do with thinking he will do any better academically, and the teaching is certainly no better, but all about the kind of experience and opportunities he will have.

Whilst I am not naive about the pressures private schools put onto children, the state schools in my area are basically exam factories, with no ability to nurture individuality. He is extremely sporty and loves drama - I don't want this knocked out of him, I want him to have a balanced, holistic education that he looks back on with fond memories. I have done a complete U-turn on this politically, but fuck it, I wish the state school system wasn't like it is, but it is and I dont think it's in the best interests of my child.

We moved areas, like many do, partly to be near what we thought were good schools - using economic capital to do this is, in my view, no more morally superior to sending private.

I tihnk there are lots of reasons why parents choose one or other sector (and I really don't think much cheating goes on in either sector even if there have been some cases in the press - we are a relatively fair system).

Mini, there are lots of private schools for children who are not particularly bright from Millfield down. Many areas have a pecking order of dssay 4 or 5 private schools with the hardest to get into at the top and the one at the bottom who will take all comers who could not have a hope of getting into the academic privates at the top.

It is entirely subjective whether private school is "worth it."

OP, this depends on so much else.

In my own particular situation, education comes above everything (pension, habitable house, etc).

I would have prostituted myself (had I been sufficiently desirable, which I am sadly not) to keep my DC in independent schools when they were small. I stick to this now. We live in the kind of circumstances that would make most normal people shiver. But I had a spectacular education, and I will die before my DC don't have the same.

"Mini, there are lots of private schools for children who are not particularly bright from Millfield down"

Of course - but NONE of these schools offer free or heavily subsidised places to children who are 'low achievers' from the state sector.