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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Private School Worth It?

164 replies

beantltc · 29/04/2018 15:58

Would like to know an adult's opinion on private school and if you think it is worth the money compared to normal schools.

OP posts:
MrsGuyOfGisbo · 30/04/2018 20:18

If you can afford it then yes, definitely.
Okay, they may end up at the same uni as their friend from the comp, but their teenage years will be immeasurably better. Forge the 'outcomes', and definitely forget Bristol! - you only have one chance to be a teenager and learn in an environment where other children are also there to learn and their parents are supportive.
I have seen this form both sides - as a parent and also as a teacher - it is a no-brainer.

BlueLegume · 30/04/2018 20:30

Definitely worth it - on the absolute proviso your family life/finances do not suffer to the point your child is aware that their education means you can’t do x y z.
It’s definitely not about grades it’s about the much bigger picture. I’d also say state 6th Form college rubs along perfectly after an independent prep plus senior or even prep plus selective grammar. Lots of independently educated kids really appreciate a taste of state education at 6th Form and realise that good teachers are good teachers, regardless of the sector. State sector teachers have just the same issues as independent - students with poor work ethic, students with ridiculous aspirations, laziness and lack of parenting.

Hoppinggreen · 30/04/2018 21:25

Depends on the options and the child.
For our very bright but lacking in confidence dd the options were

  1. Failing local comp which particularly fails high achievers
  2. Grammar in the next town
  3. Private ( non selective) 5 minutes walk from home where lots of kids are also local and theat achieves results similar to The Grammar with small classes, excellent pastoral care and an ethos which celebrates success. AND she was offered a part scholar.
Bit of a non brainer in our case but it’s not always such a simple decision
cakeisalwaystheanswer · 01/05/2018 10:30

Completely off the thread so apologies OP but the Bristol list is odd, locally Wimbledon College School ( RC boys) is on it but Ursuline the girls equivalent isn't. Also Richmond and Kingston 6th form colleges are on it but Esher isn't. So if Bristol is your aim it would be much more sensible to attend a 6th form college from their list and get a discoubted offer regardles of what school you attended for most of your education. By 6th form it's pretty much down to the DCs themselves.
It does make you realise how much power the universities have as they could effectively bring down the private school system by offering grade discounts to everyone else.

stateschoolparent · 01/05/2018 11:51

MrsGuyOfGisbo -I would have to disagree with the second part of your comment that 'they may end up at the same uni as their friend from the comp, but their teenage years will be immeasurably better.' There has always been plenty of bullying, sex abuse and (in London at least) drug consumption at private schools. Indeed virtually all the people I know whose school experience left them traumatised attended private schools.

Ellenripleysalienbaby · 01/05/2018 11:56

For the academic education? No.

For the confidence, arrogance (not necessarily in a bad way, you just think you are better than everyone else and sometimes that is a great trait!), the networking, the connections, the opportunities? Absolutely.

stateschoolparent · 01/05/2018 12:26

Hmm I would have to say that private schools are good at marketing themselves. IMO a lot of the qualities individuals have which are attributed to private schools actually come from their family background as the world over the rich are always more confident/arrogant etc. The networking and connections made tend also to be exaggerated since in my experience it is almost always family connections rather than school connections which land private pupils plum jobs etc.

Astronotus · 01/05/2018 13:27

OP. To answer your original question. We have experience of both state secondary and independent secondary in an area known for good secondary schools, including grammar schools. Good points across each type but for us the private education has provided many, many more opportunities for arts, sports, music, drama as well as high levels of academic attainment. Extra subjects such as Classics available to all and more availability for some A level subjects compared with local grammar schools. Perhaps we were lucky but we found the quality of teaching much better with qualified teachers employed in all subjects. Longer school hours and due to the smaller classes, more attention given to each student.

As I said, perhaps we were lucky to find just the right independent school for our child. However, there are high fees and do not underestimate the increase per annum, which for us was at least 5%-6% per annum. There are large scholarships and some bursaries available although the students must keep up their high scores for these.

Why do you ask?

BubblesBuddy · 01/05/2018 13:32

Clavinova - nearly every house is over £1m in London!!! That does not mean you are wealthy I'm afraid. Some private schools do take on SEND pupils and do not expect to get high grades from these children. They provide a more enriching education.

However, I too have seen the Bristol list and I guess it one attempt to level the playing field but possibly includes too many schools. Another serial poster about Bristol thinks the contextual students are more likely to drop out anyway. No evidence for that, just a feeling! If it gives state school students a shout who may not have aspired to Bristol, then why not?

Private schools should never just be about adacemics. You should get a lot more for your money. I do not just mean flashy faciliites either. It is a fully rounded education with inspiration built in. If a private school does not offer this, it is not worth the money. Not all private schools get better grades because not all teachers in them are outstanding. However, parents tend to be ambitious for their children, they apply to the best universities and make very good choices on subjects. The children are encouraged to be confident which helps when getting a job.

Given that 7-8% of children go to private schools, one would expect the 92-3% in state schools to have more bright children within their overwhelming cohort. However, we all know that many of the better jobs go to privately educated people and they still dominate Oxbridge % wise. So some private schools do add something!

BubblesBuddy · 01/05/2018 13:39

Plenty of drug taking in the state grammars/secondaries around me too! It really is a widespread social problem and not just a richer child problem! It is ludicrous to say it is more prevalent in private schools.

My children went to private school and we have no family connections to anything! DD1 has done exceptionally well to get into her chosen career and it has ALL been down to her. I actually find it rather offensive when other people think we could have got her into her career! How? She needed the exams, the work experience (which she found), the credibility and expertise - not us. We do not have it. We gave her the tools to sort it out for herself.

Itisonlyhearsay · 01/05/2018 13:44

For us, it's mainly:

The extra curricular, DC being kept busy and having the ability to try a wide variety of sports, join clubs etc.

Bright but lazy DC who is currently coasting at the top end of primary.

We both work full time and have the opportunity for someone else to take the pressure off a bit. If only one of us was working then it would a different story, both in terms of having more time to make sure DC stays on track, being able cart them around everywhere and not being able to afford it.

Wonderwine · 02/05/2018 13:53

Itisonly - yes, yes, to the keeping them busy/ keeping them on track.

DS2 is a sort of 'middling' child - not very academic, but not failing by any means, however he is somewhat gullible/ easily led and can easily be distracted. Independent school has definitely kept him more focused and on track. I think if he'd gone to our (very good) local state school he probably would have got in with the 'coasting crowd' and been happy to scrape through his GCSEs, rather than aiming for higher grades (which is what is expected and is the norm at this current school).
Bristol's contextual offer list is bizarre! Our local sixth form college is on the list, yet is a highly regarded 'National Teaching School' and has been graded as 'outstanding' by Ofsted for the last 13 years Confused

ToesInWater · 02/05/2018 16:39

Paying school fees for me is absolutely not about outcomes and results, it is about my children's overall experience of education. I want respectful, healthy teacher/pupil relationships, an environment where it is cool to achieve, opportunities for kids to engage in interests like drama/sport/music that keep them engaged in learning rather than looking for out of school alternatives and a place where different skills/abilities are respected. I want my kids to be encouraged to be the best they can be, whatever that looks like. I would love that to be possible without paying school fees but for my family fee paying has given us what we need where "free education" has not.

stateschoolparent · 03/05/2018 10:44

BubblesBuddy in London at least it has always been the case that middle class kids at state schools take less drugs than those at private schools. Don't ask me why-possibly because they don't regard the other pupils who take drugs as cool.

As regards private school pupils not using family connections to get into chosen careers, I suggest you look at research into where top lawyers, doctors, bankers, fund managers etc went to school. Private school pupils very often land plum jobs NOT because of any qualities acquired at school but because their parent has made a phone call or written to a friend/former colleague/client etc . And I speak as an ex private school pupil whose first job in the City -like many of my peers- came about through family connections . The tradition is still going strong although for PR purposes firms now have to pretend that selection is open and that they are doing their bit to encourage diversity...

stateschoolparent · 03/05/2018 10:58

I should have added that bright state school pupils at RG universities outperform private school pupils with similar A level results so the fact that the professions are dominated by people from private schools means that entry to the professions is biased in some way. My suggestion is that this is not really because employers are pro private schools but rather because wealthier MC families have always used connections to land their kids jobs.

Canadawet · 03/05/2018 11:03

I didn't read the whole tread. The fees are ridiculously high nowadays, in London at least. I wouldn't pay for an average or below average private school if an outstanding state school is available.

Biologifemini · 03/05/2018 11:22

Have been/used both.
Academically I don’t think there is a great difference. Plus spoon feeding isn’t a good idea long term.
Even extracurricular you cannot do everything.
It is for the way of speaking/working/behaving in certain scenarios that you notice a bit of difference.

Wonderwine · 03/05/2018 11:27

What makes me laugh is that I've seen people choose independent school to 'protect' little johnny from getting in with the 'wrong crowd' and then by the time Johnny is 16/17 and 'big Johnny' they're desperately enrolling him onto NCS for the summer to give him experience 'outside of his bubble' and make him a bit 'more streetwise' Grin.

There are no right answers. You have to do what you think is feel is right for your child at a particular point in time, given the choices of schools in your area. And of course there is no control - you have no idea how the options you didn't choose would have turned out!

stateschoolparent · 03/05/2018 13:17

Wonderwine -I agree there are no right answers. The concerns private school parents have about their children falling in with the "wrong crowd'' at comps are generally misguided in that -particularly in schools with banding according to academic ability- you tend to find that most children's friends come from a similar background to them. This is the case even in inner city comps. Ironically some of the worst choices of partners I have known have been made by girls who attended girls only private schools who seem to be unduly attracted to the 'wrong crowd' having not being exposed to them at school!

Itisonlyhearsay · 03/05/2018 13:21

Up until recently I have only ever known state education, both for myself and my kids. However, having just gone down the independent route, I'm am gobsmacked in terms of the difference in access you have as a parent, and how the school have fully taken responsibility for my DC's education. But I guess that's what you pay the money for - they are businesses after all!

As others have said, I don't expect DC's grades to be that different at an indie, but that's not why I have sent my kids there... and it's not for the connections they will supposedly make. Purely practical reasons.

Wonderwine · 03/05/2018 13:44

stateschoolparent - I would tend to agree with you about kids, especially academic ones, finding friends with similar backgrounds and values in state schools, especially where there is streaming. Where I think it DOES make a difference is with children who are academically average or struggling where they end up in a lower ability stream with kids who are disruptive, unsupported by parents, turned off by school etc. That's when the small class sizes and nuture of an independent school can help.
At ours there are 3 maths sets, with the top two targeting A*/A grades and the 'bottom' set targeting A/B grades. The class sizes are a reverse pyramid, with about 15-20 in the top sets and as few as 5 in the 'bottom' one. DS2 had a huge lack of confidence over maths and was in the bottom set. He has come on in leaps and bounds and has had lots of almost 1-to-1 tuition. Now he says he 'enjoys' maths because he suddenly 'gets' it.

user149799568 · 03/05/2018 15:41

stateschoolparent - I should have added that bright state school pupils at RG universities outperform private school pupils with similar A level results so the fact that the professions are dominated by people from private schools means that entry to the professions is biased in some way.

You choose to ignore the fact that more independent school pupils get 1st and upper 2nd degrees than state school pupils. As a HEFCE spokesperson conceded, the stronger degree results of independent school pupils “is explained by the different distribution of A-level achievement between state and independent school graduates - independent school students on average achieve better A-levels than state school students.”

The bias of which you speak may well exist, but the point you cite doesn't provide any support for it.

stateschoolparent · 03/05/2018 16:33

User149 study after study has shown that state school pupils outperform private pupils with similar A levels at university. This is as one would expect if you consider they have achieved the same A level results with far less spent on their secondary education (say £6000 per year) . Indeed when I was at uni far more private school pupils got poor degrees than their state school counterparts . Here is an article from the TES earlier this year (2018):

Further evidence of comprehensive school students’ “significant advantage” that makes it more likely that they get a good degree from a UK university compared with similar students from private schools is presented by a new study.
Analysis of the degrees achieved by nearly 9,000 graduates of one English university, which controlled for A-level grades, found that state school leavers were more likely to achieve a first or a 2:1 than their private school counterparts in seven out of the 11 entry qualification
For example, considering full-time students who graduated in 2010, 2011 and 2012, 95 per cent of state school students who got AAAA at A level got a good degree, compared with 91.1 per cent of their private school peers. Among students who got AAB, 82.7 per cent of state school students got a first or 2:1, compared with 80.7 per cent of private school leavers.
The researchers, led by Steven Jones, senior lecturer in education at the University of Manchester, conducted further modelling that confirmed that “coming from a comprehensive school leads to a significant advantage” in terms of degree attainment over students from independent schools, as well as grammar schools and sixth-form colleges. The researchers stress that entry qualifications are the strongest predictor of success at university.
“Students from state schools are more likely to become high achievers than those from independent schools who enter university with the same grades,” the researchers write in Research in Post-compulsory Education. “We see this as evidence that the full academic potential of high-ability state school children is not always realised until those children reach university.”
This is not the first study to find that state school students have an advantage over their private school peers at university. In 2015 a study by the University of Cambridge’s examination arm, Cambridge Assessment, found that private school leavers at Russell Group universities were about a third less likely to achieve a first or a 2:1 than state school students with similar entry grades.
Another study by the Higher Education Funding Council for England also found that state school students were more likely to graduate with the top classifications than private school students with similar backgrounds.
Dr Jones and his colleagues say that the advantage of studying just a single university, unlike the earlier studies, is that it minimises the variation “caused by disparate universities having different degree-awarding regulations”.
However, Chris Ramsey, joint chair of the university subcommittee of the Headmasters’ and Headmistresses’ Conference, which represents independent schools, said that studies of undergraduate performance were “notoriously difficult to keep in proportion”.
“By far the strongest predictor of university outcomes is prior attainment,” said Mr Ramsey, headmaster of Whitgift School.
“A small number of mid-performing A-level students do ‘better’ than would be expected at university when they come from some types of maintained school – around 1 per cent of all state school entrants to higher education,” Mr Ramsey said. But top performers from all school types “overwhelmingly gain outcomes at university exactly in line with their 18-plus attainment”, he added.
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user149799568 · 03/05/2018 17:25

stateschoolparent

I'm not disputing the studies that indicate that state school pupils outperform independent school pupils with similar A levels. My point is that, even so, overall, independent school pupils outperform state school pupils because, on average, independent school pupils come into university having achieved higher A levels.

So, if you believe university results should correlate with subsequent achievement, the point you choose to emphasize, by itself, does not necessarily imply that the (over)representation of independently educated people in rich/powerful positions must be the result of further bias.

Your conclusion that there is bias may be correct, but it is not supported by the point you cited per se.

mastertomsmum · 04/05/2018 18:37

I think it can be, but there are a lot of factors. If the choice of schools includes one that seems like a good fit for your child then it can be a good move. If local state school is a good school (based on what local parents say not Ofsted) then might not be worth bothering.

At secondary level a good state secondary will offer much the same as a good independent school. Right down to Ski trips and sports facilities. We swapped a feeder school to an independent school with a drama studio and orchestra for a primary a mile from a secondary with same facilities which is where we’ve ended up.

Pastoral and SENCO card are much better anc it’s free.

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