New analysis - Grammar schools in England

[IntheMotherhood]

There's been quite a bit of engagement from various MNs recently over disproportionate focus on % A*/As league table and what this does to providing an actual education to our children.

There's also been discussion on super selective schools, specifically grammars and the continued obsession on 'getting in' being a pinnacle of 11+ academic ambition for many families.

Does it really make a difference if your child is of high prior attainment? Does the individual perceived benefit(s) of going to a Grammar outweigh the larger social disbenefit(s)?

Thought this new analysis published online today in the British Journal of Sociology of Education might be of interest.

Make yourself a cuppa and enjoy.

"....Using the full 2015 cohort of pupils in England, this article shows how the pupils attending grammar schools are stratified in terms of chronic poverty, ethnicity, language, special educational needs and even precise age within their year group. This kind of clustering of relative advantage is potentially dangerous for society. The article derives measures of chronic poverty and local socio-economic status segregation between schools, and uses these to show that the results from grammar schools are no better than expected, once these differences are accounted for...."

www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01425692.2018.1443432

[noblegiraffe]

Talkin it seems you think the best path is accelerating these students through the curriculum and university maths? Interestingly this is not what we were advised. No coherent national strategy, it seems.

[noblegiraffe]

We know from international studies that the earlier academic selection takes place, the greater social inequity it creates.

[Iceweasel]

So you think academic selection should take place at primary level?
I don't know. My point was that my DS was at a primary of 700 kids and still stood out in his year and it was negatively affecting him. I didn't have the option to send him to a private school or to move to an affluent area (single parent, low income). Academic selection at primary level made all the difference for him.

[MumTryingHerBest]

he started in a selective class at another school in year 5

I didn't have the option to send him to a private school or to move to an affluent area (single parent, low income).

I didn't know there were any selective state primary schools in this Country.

[Iceweasel]

MumTryingHerBest, we were not in the UK at the time.

[Iceweasel]

It was also not a selective school, there were two classes (year 5 and 6) within an otherwise non selective state primary.

[MumTryingHerBest]

we were not in the UK at the time.

So you think there should be selective schools in this country based on your experience of educational proivision in another country?

[MumTryingHerBest]

Iceweasel - It was also not a selective school

So you have compared your DCs experience at two non selective schools to determine that selective schools are needed?

Surely if access to an academically able peer group could only be facilitated by an academically selective school, then your DC would not have had an academic peer group in either of the non selective schools?

[Iceweasel]

MumTryingHerBest, I don't know.

For the year 5/6 selective classes my DS attended, only about 15% of kids who take the test are offered a place, and the test is opt-in. He was the only student from his year at his first school to be offered a place. So, I think they have minimal effect on other schools.

The big issue is, like in the UK, kids being are extensively tutored to do well in the test. I just bought DS a test practice book, but some kids are tutored from year 3, which is not affordable for low income families.

[Iceweasel]

MumTryingHerBest, sorry if I haven't been clear, the school was an otherwise non selective state primary with local kids, but it also had two selective classes with local and non local kids. So, partially selective?

[Piggywaspushed]

devilish your post is very interesting. I have a very hard working above average DS2 who is thriving at his comp for all the reasons you cite. They seem very fond of him, give him high effort grades and he has musical and cultural opportunities : sure, he would probably have more of this at a grammar or private school but he does quite enough really! He id selecting perfectly academic GCSEs and if he wanted to do , say , Latin, he could transfer to a nearby comp which offers it.

I suspect he could have squeaked into a Grammar School if we had them locally or a private school at 11 or 13, but I also suspect he would have been in lower ability groups there and rapidly got swallowed up and overlooked as just another reasonably able child.

DS1, however, he has a range of underachievement and self esteem issues might ironically have done better at a selective school because he has always tended to be peer influenced in terms of work ethic and being put in set 2 of his (streamed: sigh) comp put paid to most of his aspiration and ambition quite early on . Every child is different, I guess . But, on balance, I am still relieved and happy that we do not have grammar schools in our area. Particularly as both my DCs are summer born boys!

[MumTryingHerBest]

The big issue is, like in the UK, kids being are extensively tutored to do well in the test.

I'm assuming those DCs passing the test would have done so despite being heavily tutored. Otherwise I don't see how they would provide an academically able peer group for your DC?

[Devilishpyjamas]

I’ve found the cultural opportunities on offer greater at ds3’s mixed ability School, compared to the grammar. Partly because the grammar will offer a trip to Greece for £2000 so only a few can afford it, while ds3’s mixed ability school will aim to ensure the entire year group goes to France. And if a further afield opportunity is offered they will
organise fundraising.

[Piggywaspushed]

hmmmm... I haven't found that at DS's school. Not many trips abroad (can't say I blame teachers for that) and those there are are expensive. There is a music exchange to Germany and a few other trips plus his school did a rugby tour. The school I teach at does none of that kind of thing but is maybe better for common or garden European trips. Either way, they are all rather pricy!

[Devilishpyjamas]

Ds3’s school did France for £40 last year (for year 7 - including £2 for a group passport for those without one).. It’s very inclusive. It is a bit of an odd school though.

[Piggywaspushed]

Sounds it! I thought group passports weren't allowed any more??

To be fair, we couldn't take whole year groups anywhere as they exceed 400!

Mine is going to Somme in September (£250) and DS1 did Iceland in year 11 (£500: that's my limit). My school did pay for PP students to go on a ski trip.

[Iceweasel]

MumTryingHerBest, there is no passing or failing the test. Places are allocated in order of score, like a superselective here? All the kids in the class would have to be very bright to be offered a place, but tutoring would have given some kids an advantage over others. I don't think that is fair. I was pointing out that it is not a perfect system.

In short, my DC was unhappy and disengaging from school, despite having good teachers, but has thrived in selective education. At the same time, I am aware of the problems with selective education, and that kids like my DC are underrepresented. So, I am very unsure where I stand on this issue.

[Devilishpyjamas]

I don’t know how much longer they’ll be allowed but Ds3 went on the group passport last year for £2

[MumTryingHerBest]

I was pointing out that it is not a perfect system.

I know the system well. It exists in the UK - SW Hertfordshire. I think "Not a perfect system" would be an understatement.