New analysis - Grammar schools in England

[IntheMotherhood]

There's been quite a bit of engagement from various MNs recently over disproportionate focus on % A*/As league table and what this does to providing an actual education to our children.

There's also been discussion on super selective schools, specifically grammars and the continued obsession on 'getting in' being a pinnacle of 11+ academic ambition for many families.

Does it really make a difference if your child is of high prior attainment? Does the individual perceived benefit(s) of going to a Grammar outweigh the larger social disbenefit(s)?

Thought this new analysis published online today in the British Journal of Sociology of Education might be of interest.

Make yourself a cuppa and enjoy.

"....Using the full 2015 cohort of pupils in England, this article shows how the pupils attending grammar schools are stratified in terms of chronic poverty, ethnicity, language, special educational needs and even precise age within their year group. This kind of clustering of relative advantage is potentially dangerous for society. The article derives measures of chronic poverty and local socio-economic status segregation between schools, and uses these to show that the results from grammar schools are no better than expected, once these differences are accounted for...."

www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01425692.2018.1443432

[MumTryingHerBest]

I was pointing out that it is not a perfect system.

I know the system well. It exists in the UK - SW Hertfordshire. I think "Not a perfect system" would be an understatement.

[Devilishpyjamas]

I don’t know how much longer they’ll be allowed but Ds3 went on the group passport last year for £2

[Iceweasel]

MumTryingHerBest, there is no passing or failing the test. Places are allocated in order of score, like a superselective here? All the kids in the class would have to be very bright to be offered a place, but tutoring would have given some kids an advantage over others. I don't think that is fair. I was pointing out that it is not a perfect system.

In short, my DC was unhappy and disengaging from school, despite having good teachers, but has thrived in selective education. At the same time, I am aware of the problems with selective education, and that kids like my DC are underrepresented. So, I am very unsure where I stand on this issue.

[Piggywaspushed]

Sounds it! I thought group passports weren't allowed any more??

To be fair, we couldn't take whole year groups anywhere as they exceed 400!

Mine is going to Somme in September (£250) and DS1 did Iceland in year 11 (£500: that's my limit). My school did pay for PP students to go on a ski trip.

[Devilishpyjamas]

Ds3’s school did France for £40 last year (for year 7 - including £2 for a group passport for those without one).. It’s very inclusive. It is a bit of an odd school though.

[Piggywaspushed]

hmmmm... I haven't found that at DS's school. Not many trips abroad (can't say I blame teachers for that) and those there are are expensive. There is a music exchange to Germany and a few other trips plus his school did a rugby tour. The school I teach at does none of that kind of thing but is maybe better for common or garden European trips. Either way, they are all rather pricy!

[Devilishpyjamas]

I’ve found the cultural opportunities on offer greater at ds3’s mixed ability School, compared to the grammar. Partly because the grammar will offer a trip to Greece for £2000 so only a few can afford it, while ds3’s mixed ability school will aim to ensure the entire year group goes to France. And if a further afield opportunity is offered they will
organise fundraising.

[MumTryingHerBest]

The big issue is, like in the UK, kids being are extensively tutored to do well in the test.

I'm assuming those DCs passing the test would have done so despite being heavily tutored. Otherwise I don't see how they would provide an academically able peer group for your DC?

[Piggywaspushed]

devilish your post is very interesting. I have a very hard working above average DS2 who is thriving at his comp for all the reasons you cite. They seem very fond of him, give him high effort grades and he has musical and cultural opportunities : sure, he would probably have more of this at a grammar or private school but he does quite enough really! He id selecting perfectly academic GCSEs and if he wanted to do , say , Latin, he could transfer to a nearby comp which offers it.

I suspect he could have squeaked into a Grammar School if we had them locally or a private school at 11 or 13, but I also suspect he would have been in lower ability groups there and rapidly got swallowed up and overlooked as just another reasonably able child.

DS1, however, he has a range of underachievement and self esteem issues might ironically have done better at a selective school because he has always tended to be peer influenced in terms of work ethic and being put in set 2 of his (streamed: sigh) comp put paid to most of his aspiration and ambition quite early on . Every child is different, I guess . But, on balance, I am still relieved and happy that we do not have grammar schools in our area. Particularly as both my DCs are summer born boys!

[Iceweasel]

MumTryingHerBest, sorry if I haven't been clear, the school was an otherwise non selective state primary with local kids, but it also had two selective classes with local and non local kids. So, partially selective?

[Iceweasel]

MumTryingHerBest, I don't know.

For the year 5/6 selective classes my DS attended, only about 15% of kids who take the test are offered a place, and the test is opt-in. He was the only student from his year at his first school to be offered a place. So, I think they have minimal effect on other schools.

The big issue is, like in the UK, kids being are extensively tutored to do well in the test. I just bought DS a test practice book, but some kids are tutored from year 3, which is not affordable for low income families.

[MumTryingHerBest]

Iceweasel - It was also not a selective school

So you have compared your DCs experience at two non selective schools to determine that selective schools are needed?

Surely if access to an academically able peer group could only be facilitated by an academically selective school, then your DC would not have had an academic peer group in either of the non selective schools?

[MumTryingHerBest]

we were not in the UK at the time.

So you think there should be selective schools in this country based on your experience of educational proivision in another country?

[Iceweasel]

It was also not a selective school, there were two classes (year 5 and 6) within an otherwise non selective state primary.

[Iceweasel]

MumTryingHerBest, we were not in the UK at the time.

[MumTryingHerBest]

he started in a selective class at another school in year 5

I didn't have the option to send him to a private school or to move to an affluent area (single parent, low income).

I didn't know there were any selective state primary schools in this Country.

[Iceweasel]

So you think academic selection should take place at primary level?
I don't know. My point was that my DS was at a primary of 700 kids and still stood out in his year and it was negatively affecting him. I didn't have the option to send him to a private school or to move to an affluent area (single parent, low income). Academic selection at primary level made all the difference for him.

[noblegiraffe]

We know from international studies that the earlier academic selection takes place, the greater social inequity it creates.

[noblegiraffe]

Talkin it seems you think the best path is accelerating these students through the curriculum and university maths? Interestingly this is not what we were advised. No coherent national strategy, it seems.

[MumTryingHerBest]

Iceweasel - My DS was the outlier in a school year of 100 until he started in a selective class at another school in year 5

So you think academic selection should take place at primary level?

[Devilishpyjamas]

I think that superselectives are slightly different from regular grammar schools, as often only 1 or children from each primary school gets in and they have no obvious impact on local high schools. They could arguably be seen as providing a similar function to local special schools

Utter bullocks. And I have one on a super selective, one who attended a special school and one who is at comprehensive. To compare the learning needs of bright kids with those with severe learning disabilities is utterly offensive and complete pie in the sky bullshit about how ‘different’ or ‘special’ high achievers are.

That sort of attitude does explain some of the arrogance I see at the superselective though.

IME - the teaching at the superselective is old fashioned. Stand at the front and deliver. There is little effort put in to anyone except the extreme high achievers and very clever children may quickly develop the attitude that they are thick. My son is in year 11 and I still don’t really feel the staff know him.

The teaching is much better at the comp and staff-pupil relationships are better. My son knows exactly which football teams staff support for example. I was in school last week with my year 8 son and one of the teachers came over to us and told my son that he’d been shown a piece of writing he’d done, that he was there when the head of department was reading it and that he’d had a massive smile on his face and that he’d used every device they’d talked about. It was lovely to see such positive feedback and it’s really given my son a massive boost in confidence. That sort of feedback would never happen in the grammar.

Incidentally my comp attending son is much more academic (in the sense of enjoying research and analysis) than my grammar attending son. My comp attending son is like a mini-academic in the way he approaches history study. However, superselective boy is a lot better at exams and achieving a result under high pressure and time pressure - he’s not brighter - he’s a performer.

[sendsummer]

Many counties have used early specialisation and intense practice to build up their national mathematical expertise or chess champions as well as dancers, musicians, sports etc. I would agree that may be to the detriment of the DC but perhaps not for the national economy.

As an aside my DCs have attended superselective schools and equivalent in private and even with that level of selection the ability range for different subjects is large even taking out the outliers. Ditto at the most academically selective universities.
My DCs' enjoyed learning at the pace that was right for them by their schools being able to further diffferentiate by subject setting
That system allowed us to be completely slack parents.
Studies showing lack of benefit from selection don't factor in the parental or other input that some families do to compensate a suboptimal learning environment (before students become self sufficient.)

[Iceweasel]

I think there are kids, not the few doing a maths GCSE at 11, but far enough ahead that they might not have a handful of similar peers to bounce ideas off of and work with in class.

My DS was the outlier in a school year of 100 until he started in a selective class at another school in year 5 (test with no catchment, like a super selective grammar, kids bussed from all over). At the first school the teachers could provide for his academic needs in class, but he chose to work with peers doing work that was too easy rather than work alone. He was allowed to choose, but we still had school refusal and other issues. At his second school he was still top at maths but not an outlier. The difference that being with peers at his level made to my child was incredible.

I think kids do need access to similar ability peers (not only similar ability peers, that is not what I'm saying). If grammars don't work then we need something else. So, I'm very interested in this discussion.

[Piggywaspushed]

Just to butt in about the networks:

1. Teaching School should have replaced LAs in many areas as hubs
   
2. in terms of maths , it is one of the subjects that does seem to have local and regional hubs, compared to most others
   
3. there are generally professional associations for each subject
   
4. a university nearby with an education department often has a specialist in the gifted child
   
5. I genuinely believe truly gifted children are more worried about and accommodated than poor old (above) average Joe, who we seem to forget about in any debate...

[IntheMotherhood]

Morning folks- this is turning out to be a really informative thread.

So my key takeaway from all the many insightful comments is:

• that there's no real social or academic case behind a grammar system if conditions can be met to improve investment and trust into comprehensives and teachers.
  

• looking through the case of selective education through a 'special needs' lens would include a high 'ultra able' threshold and one that is tutor proof ...but how would you identify these kids and really, at what age should the provision kick in from?
  

Huge over simplification of the situation but the point is that continued state funding of grammars keeps us further away from this being a real and nationally consistent option for our children.

I hope more threads on MN will have the potential to create the social change needed from parents' side. E.g policy change needs to be coupled with how we value league table information that reinforces the system we want (promoting mixed ability schools and minimising perverse incentives).

Happy Easter all!