New analysis - Grammar schools in England

[IntheMotherhood]

There's been quite a bit of engagement from various MNs recently over disproportionate focus on % A*/As league table and what this does to providing an actual education to our children.

There's also been discussion on super selective schools, specifically grammars and the continued obsession on 'getting in' being a pinnacle of 11+ academic ambition for many families.

Does it really make a difference if your child is of high prior attainment? Does the individual perceived benefit(s) of going to a Grammar outweigh the larger social disbenefit(s)?

Thought this new analysis published online today in the British Journal of Sociology of Education might be of interest.

Make yourself a cuppa and enjoy.

"....Using the full 2015 cohort of pupils in England, this article shows how the pupils attending grammar schools are stratified in terms of chronic poverty, ethnicity, language, special educational needs and even precise age within their year group. This kind of clustering of relative advantage is potentially dangerous for society. The article derives measures of chronic poverty and local socio-economic status segregation between schools, and uses these to show that the results from grammar schools are no better than expected, once these differences are accounted for...."

www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01425692.2018.1443432

[Toomanytealights]

And couldn't you apply that research to any high achieving comp in expensive, high achieving, high motivated areas e.g. London.

Really don't get the point of it,its kind of obvious.

[TalkinPeece]

If grammars don't make any difference leave those who want them to crack on.
because they impact clearly and negatively on the children who do not get into them.

NOT a good use of taxpayers funds

[Andante57]

I agree farfallina I think the independent sector also needs to have clearer accountability mechanisms too.

Why? One of the reasons parents choose independent schools is because they are just that: independent.

[IntheMotherhood]

JoJo - your experience of growing up in Eastern Europe where a fully selective education system wasn't reflective of wider homogenous standards of living is an interesting one. I can appreciate what a nightmare the whole UK education system might comes across as.
Without being a deep expert in E Europe (!) I would hazard a guess that the perceived social homogeneity was more to do with the communist policies (past and legacy)...rather than a selective education system engendering social cohesion.

I am by no means an ivory tower ideologue and of course selection is infused in everything we do...but I really don't think that grammar schools should continue to be 100% state funded as it diverts resources from the wider, state-funded non-selective education system.

So HPFA has covered the point about attainment and selective systems...

...can someone please link me to any research that shows where a fully selective system leads to better social cohesion?
From what I've been exposed to (admittedly all left leaning sources), all the data indicates that selection widens social inequality.

www.centreforsocialjustice.org.uk/core/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/161201-Grammar-School-Report.pdf

www.suttontrust.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/SuttonTrustFullReportFinal11.pdf

I still don't understand what is wrong with an all-ability school with setting in specific subjects (Maths, Languages, Science etc). That's an approach that could be sector agnostic...providing that parents weren't obsessed with schools being 110% A*=A...

[IntheMotherhood]

Andante57 I don't think being independent is a 'get out jail' card for being accountable to parents on your child's progress!!

Also - not saying it needs to be through over testing - Indies are free to show accountability by other measures. Although all kids are funnelled through the same set of public exams it would make sense for their accountability measure to not make them look silly.

[FraggleRockHopper]

@IntheMotherhood I don't think being independent is a 'get out jail' card for being accountable to parents on your child's progress!!

Independent schools respond to supply and demand and there simply isn't the demand for what you're suggesting. Independent parents that I know are happy with the reporting they get and wouldn't welcome more testing. We have chosen an all through school for our DS in part because it will save him from any entrance testing or SATS. Ultimately we do want him to get the best GCSEs/A levels he capable of but we feel confident the school will deliver that without additional testing along the way.

The problem with progress testing like SATS is that it encourages teachers to spend time teaching to the test and not educating your child.

[Piggywaspushed]

Not only do most of the countries who perform highly in PISA not have selective education, they also don't select by ability WITHIN their schools.

Many of you would be interested in reading Cleverlands which looks at high achieving education systems, warts and all.

[Piggywaspushed]

I have never in RL met a parent who chose private school for their DCs because of its independence. Many many other reasons are cited : academic success, extra curricular, sports facilities, class size, reputation, cache : never mentioned some sort of utopian ideal. In fact (my town has a plethora of private school) they expect the teachers (my DH is one) to very much teach towards the ultimate tests of GCSE and A Level, pretty much relentlessly.

I have , however, heard teachers citing that they wish to move to the private sector to escape constant testing and data gathering.

[Toomanytealights]

Talkin they get less cash and every kid comes with a price tag as regards education.

[IntheMotherhood]

That's fantastic fraggle that you have that confidence. I think you are spot on with over testing - very tedious and I think that Indies have an advantage on having more freedom to teach beyond the test.

When children are reduced to data points it really defeats the point of education. SATs have become a very mixed up and rather tragic story.

At the same time - I'm not anti-tests as I think if done correctly, they serve a very good purpose.
And I'm all for creating proper baselines to check that something is working.

Piggy I will look up Cleverlands, thanks for the recommendation.

Off to drink wine now! have a good evening all.

[TalkinPeece]

toomany
Talkin they get less cash and every kid comes with a price tag as regards education.
NOPE
Grammar schools do not tend to get the money that comes with SEN and PP kids - as they do not let them in the door

but Grammars in London get more per pupil than Comps anywhere else in the country

[HPFA]

An interesting piece here from Andreas Schleicher, head honcho of PISA testing

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-31087545

Ultimately, since "social cohesion" and "social mobility" are fairly vague terms I don't think you're ever going to have definitive proof onw way or the other. And education is only one part of the picture anyway.

[TheFallenMadonna]

There is a link on that page to a report on which says that on average, students with more motivation to learn maths score better, and there is a strong negative association between motivation, and the extent to which system sort children into different schools or programmes.

[Toomanytealights]

Comps in London and many other areas get waaay more than our grammars even before you allow for PP and Sen.

Aside from that making more school places costs wherever a kid goes to school.

[TammyWhyNot]

Is there any evidence or data to back up your feeling, Toomanytealights?

I suspect that the top sets are skewed to more affluent kids because overall their is a poverty / achievement effect. But in my kids comps I definitely see kids be supported to do their very best, move up sets after a slow start, and that there are plenty of PP kids in the top sets.

I have swotty high achieving kids. I don’t want a Grammar system because removing my kids to another building is not necessary, and affects the rest of the system badly. I don’t want summer born boys who can’t pass the test on tne day sent to a school where they don’t do triple science or MFL just so my kids can be sepereted socially from them. Our society needs all kids to be given every chance to flourish at their best.

[TalkinPeece]

toomanytealight
Comps in London and many other areas get waaay more than our grammars even before you allow for PP and Sen.
Bollocks.
The funding formula per pupil by district is the same regardless of the type of school
and London schools get more than anywhere else in the country

[JoJoSM2]

On the selectivity front, countries like Japan, Korea, Estonia etc are all selective.

However, the selection happens more at about the stage of going to KS4 rather than as early as it does in the UK for grammar schools.

IntheMotherhood, yes, the communists achieved that perceived classlessness through a range of means and education was just one of them. However, communism fell some 30 years ago and the social cohesion is still there, property prices have not differentiated at all and if you ask people about social classes, they make genuinely baffled faces.

[Toomanytealights]

Exactly, so grammars don't get more they get the same per kid as comps and if they're unlucky enough to be in areas which get substantially less than London the London comps you mention actually get much more. That is before you take into account the money they quite rightly don't get for PP and Sen.

[Piggywaspushed]

JoJo , I'd have to go back and read Cleverlands, but I am fairly sure you are not right about selective education in all those countries and am not sure who you mean by etc!

[HPFA]

According to this education in Japan is non-selective up to the age of 15 so for PISA purposes can be considered as non-selective

wenr.wes.org/2005/05/wenr-mayjune-2005-education-in-japan

In South Korea, according to this article junior high schools (up to age 15) are completely non-selective, after that senior high school places are allocated through lottery in some areas of the country and by a form of academic selection in others.

ncee.org/what-we-do/center-on-international-education-benchmarking/top-performing-countries/south-korea-overview/south-korea-instructional-systems/

Given that Pisa testing takes place between 15 and 16 years old both systems can be considered non-selective, since any selection could only have happened very recently.

[Needtomakeachange]

The presumption that parents who choose grammar schools or superselectives simply to chase high grades or avoid the disruptive elements is too simplistic.

No one suggests that a child with severe learning difficulties can just slot into the nearest available school. Parents are encouraged to find a school that will support their child in the best way possible. If your child were incredibly able and had been forced to endure years of mind numbing repetitive work at primary school despite that ability you might see that for some children, a super selective school is just one which meets their equally specially needs. I would even argue that these kids should be equally entitled to free travel but I'm sure that will never happen.

I wonder how many kids like this are at comprehensives where they have to play down their abilities in order to avoid bullies and social exclusion. We need a range of schools because all kids are special & all have their own unique gifts and needs. One size does not fit all. Even if grammars don't alter overall outcomes, perhaps they result in happier kids.

[TheFallenMadonna]

Do you think the overall happiness is improved by selective systems? Or just in the selective schools? There is evidence, linked to below, that average motivation is lower in selective systems.

[Needtomakeachange]

I think that superselectives are slightly different from regular grammar schools, as often only 1 or children from each primary school gets in and they have no obvious impact on local high schools. They could arguably be seen as providing a similar function to local special schools.

[TheFallenMadonna]

That is certainly something that should be argued with...

[Needtomakeachange]

Do you imagine that a single school could meet the needs of every child ?