What are STATE schools in London like?

[TeenTimesTwo]

I've been reading with mild interest the issue of exploding offers for CLGS.

But it made me wonder. From what I see in media (TV news, and papers), I have the impression that state schools in London have made great steps forward over the past 10-15 years and are now considered very good.

Is that true? Not just for schools with convoluted admissions criteria (like Grey Coats?) but on average for your ordinary run of the mill local secondary?

If so, why so much angst over applying to so many private schools? And the willingness to set up your 11 year olds for such long commutes? Is the education really so much better? Or is it 'snob value' or fear of the unknown, or 'because that's what my social circle does' or old reputations?

I've found stats for pupil numbers as of Jan 2017

If you compare tables 1a and 1c, then it's 94,598 in private and 424,873 in maintained schools (so 519,471 in school age 16-19) so just over 18%. Not that big a change.

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/645092/SFR28_2017_National_Tables.xlsx

Im very sorry that we appear londoncentric! But as this thread is asking about LONDON schools i think your concerns are misplaced, if you chose to live in the northern wastes, the pretty coastal areas or sodding chichester its not our fault!

To those in the north, your cost of living is cheaper, your children will be able to buy their own homes etc, good on you! But certain sectors of employment will never have the same options.
Coast, you have your view stop whinging about fishing boats/tourists/dog poo and get involved with your dc's education.
Chichester, theres no hope get over it at least you can look down on pompey and bogner while admiring your town centre

"another / carlton
Yes, of course some of the dire schools are secondary.
The ones that keep their results up by kicking kids out just before GCSEs because the standard of teaching is poor"

I'm in London and know the secondaries pretty well. And I cannot think which you mean. Yes, I've heard of the odd pupil counselled out at end year 8, rarely later. But not a wholesale practice (and given the level of entrance exams in the first place, that's unsurprising).

@comeinpax @TalkinPeace We're not at the UCAS stage yet, if that's the case I'm pleased to hear it!

Generous contextual offers only apply to very poorly performing state schools. Not state schools per se.
The numbers applying for contextual consideration at university admission stage has skyrocketed.

One admin bod for a very high tariff course, told me it gets more applications for its contextualised offer than for its standard degree!
To be considered nowadays, the pupil must come from a very deprived postcode. If you're on a low income and somewhere that's recently gentrified, forget it. If you're at a mediocre comp, ditto.

Most people who I know who moved their DC out of private school for sixth form for only a few reasons. One, like, us, they couldn't afford it - we were both made redundant during our child's time there, which meant we removed them midway through GCSEs. Second, disillusionment with what a private school "offered" - insufficent A-level choices was a common reason and in some classes, the number of pupils taking a subject would be too small - which can mean it's a very "small" environment. Some of my DC's private school friends wanted to leave and go to bigger, mixed schools and ended up at an average comprehensive -not one of the outstanding well-known ones. They chose, not their parents.

Another
But looking at those tables, it is NOT the case that kids are moving into private schools
Years 7 - 11 have private school cohorts of between 43000 and 48000
Years 12 and 13 have cohorts of max 42356

It is the case that significant numbers of state school kids leave full time education and take up apprenticeships or work (despite the rules)
In state schools the cohort sizes drop from over 500,000 to just over 200,000
and as the private school cohorts also drop, the percentage change is NOT to do with magically finding school fees

anothernewt
I'm in London and know the secondaries pretty well.
Do you really know every single secondary school in the 0207 /0208 region?
I certainly do not purport to. I just know the ones DH has worked at / I know people at.

And TBH kicking kids out is/was pretty standard selective school practice to massage the results up - in both state and private

comeinpax
To be considered nowadays, the pupil must come from a very deprived postcode.
Don't I know it. No idea if it did actually help my DCs but there have to be some perks about living here

CookeDough, yes, I’m sorry I was being unreasonable. Whereas it is true that none of my MC kids have yet been in a ‘Corporate environment ‘ I do think it important that kids from homes with smaller horizons are told that this really is a place which they have the right to aspire to.

Gowgirl
Northern waste lands, gave Britain its industrial revolution.
ON top of our "numerous" advantages, we are more friendly and generous, too.
Did you know that most transplants carried out in southern hospitals use organs from the north.
So not only shit schools and shorter life expectances, but we keep you alive too.
Daisy, if you live in London on £42000, do you use private, how, we earned not much more in East Yorkshire, and can't get bursaries and can't afford to educate either son at private, and its only £11000/ year with us

Hmmm. In a county which shows the worst effects of both rural and coastal deprivation, my sister did move her kids from state comp to private for sixth form. The good state schools did not run sixth forms and the colleges were catering for a non academic workforce for seasonal, manual and ‘blue collar’ jobs, great BTecs and skilled apprenticeship courses, but not really for her kids who have and are heading for first class degrees in STEM subjects.

Here in an area of S London that has one of th poorest wards in the country, many people who went private for Secondary have chosen state sixth forms. A choice of excellent sixth forms available locally and a short bus ride away (catchments are much less of an issue at sixth form) and vibrant sparky kids. In two families I know the DD’s rebelled and refused to continue in their girls private schools, and are now thoroughly enjoying, and excelling in, state schools.

@user you're not being the greatest example of the North being "more friendly"

User - we earned more at the time we sent one of our DC to private school. DH earned about 40k and I earned about 30k. But this was about eight years ago. Then we both lost our jobs and our current jobs pay pay much less. Looking back, I don't think it was worth sending our DC to private school, but I think my reasons at the time were valid. The fees kept increasing every year and we did struggle. But they ended up at a normal comprehensive with a lot of the same people they were at primary school with - so I don't think it made any difference, it's hard to tell. Maybe the small classes helped a bit, and there were lots of nice children, but then being stuck in the bottom set didn't do a great deal for their confidence, whereas they'd have been in the middle at a comprehensive. When they moved to the comprehensive, they were a bit shocked by the behaviour and disruption that went on, even at A-level stage.

User1471etc: not all Londoners. The vast majority of Londoners are actually ordinary, not at all wealthy, and get on and send their kids to perfectly OK comps without much comment.

This panicking about schools is a particular feature of MNers who come here to talk about it, and this thread in particular is aimed at parents who chose or could have chosen (I.e rich enough) private.

Many of us are also very friendly, helpful to visitors, and work in the only city that makes a net financial contribution to the rest of the country.

But I’m grateful for the organs. Maybe Northerners have more to donate as they have to use dangerous A roads instead of the tube

(Northerner by birth)

It makes perfect sense that as the children become young adults parents can better judge what school better suits their needs.
But the city of London is huge, I expect it’s hard to generalize about education. I’ve only met one teen on my visits to see the grandchildren (who will be going through this crazy system) she was a very impressive young woman from Ste Marylebone, would she be representative of state education in London? I suspect not.

Really I am now convinced that the average Mn/London private school user doesn't have a clue about life outside your SE bubbles

I think you' will find that there are plenty of families within the SE 'bubbles' who are not able to afford private schools and actually live very modest lives. We're called 'the stretched middle', mainly with jobs in the public sector. Many families using private schools in London (and elsewhere) are relying on the bank of grandparents or trust funds rather than paying fees out of their own pockets.

However, I do agree that there may be a larger % of families (than elsewhere in the UK) who have lived very privileged lives and haven't got a clue how ordinary families get by. Another reason why state school education is so important - insight!

My daughter will be going to a private school in September and I am not at all rich, or at least not the kind of rich that can stump up £20,000 a year without murmur! I'm not poor either - we own our house (with mortgage), we don't struggle to put food on the table, we have a holiday every year, we can afford to buy her music lessons, she can join school clubs that have fees etc. DD got a bursary and we do not have to pay very much of the school fees. Had we not got one, there is absolutely no way we could have given her that option.

In fact, I was planning to send her to state school (either the fairly local super-selective or one of the other comprehensives nearby which are all at least OK). However, DD asked why she couldn't try for a private school as others in her class were talking about it which prompted me to find out if a bursary might be available.

She sat for one state super-selective and one independent. There was very little stress involved. The stress we did have came entirely from the super-selective. The independent exam was positively enjoyable by comparison, though harder.

As I say, the local schools are fine. But the one I think we would almost certainly get if she didn't get the super-selective is almost the worst of our options. It's also religious, even though it takes lots of children of no religion, and I thought there was far too much talk of god at the open day (DD very much not keen on this either). There was also a chaotic feel about the open day which was very familiar to me from her current school and which I don't want any more of. She won't get the opportunity there to do some subjects that I think she is highly likely to enjoy and be good at. DD is also sick of the constant low level disruption at school. She wants to learn.

It was very clear to me at the open days for both the state grammar and the independent school that DD would get the opportunity to do all kinds of things that she wouldn't have a chance of at our local school. If I could guarantee DD getting into the school I actually liked best of the state options, I might very well have not been bothered to find out about the bursary but that would have required an expensive house move which we can't afford.

Others have commented above authoritatively on experience of London comps. I can give OP the lowdown on the London comp (‘non-selective’) application process, having just gone through it.
From mid-September - mid October my Y6 DS spent virtually every Saturday plus a couple of weekday mornings (school gave permission) sitting aptitude tests of some kind or other, total of 6 I think including the dreaded Wandsworth test (another story). All (except the WT) were 30 - 40 minute affairs so finished in an hour including registration and explanation. My DS met classmates on every occasion and being a sociable chap enjoyed being part of a small gang - almost a group playdate! Of course it was pretty much the same kids every time; yep, the 3 or 4 white-middle-class ones from his class. These are very much a minority at our state primary, though a growing one, due to changing local demographic mentioned by earlier poster.
They were being tested (apart from the WT) for aptitude in one of the following: Music, Languages, Technology, Art, Sport, at one or other of several oversubscribed comps more or less within commuting distance. Comprehensives generally have option of selecting I believe 10% of annual intake based on aptitude in one of these areas, originally to enable them to establish a speciality in that area. But it only works if the school is oversubscribed to begin with! Now I think they use it mainly as a means of ensuring they have a solid intake of able kids. Generally speaking, with exception of sport perhaps, it will be the same kids who do well in whatever speciality the schools choose to test for!
So, parents get the results of all these tests (including the WT) a few days before their completed CAP or London Schools Application form is due (end Oct), and they will, indeed are expected, to adjust the form accordingly, prioritising the schools at which their DC did well and abandoning those for which they now recognise they have no chance - for most likely they live way outside the tiny catchment area. That’s why, probably, they went for the test in first place.
Many DC, in fact most, will not qualify for any aptitude place. Many, if not most, won’t have gone in for any (it takes foresight and ruthless scheduling). Many, if not most, London comprehensives do not use them at all (must make for extra admin) but just stick to basic distance criteria.
But you can guess which schools tend to end up a magnet for the, um, entitled, with, um ‘gifted’ (or maybe tutored) kids. And, speaking from experience, it is very hard to resist any school which appears to have selected your DC ahead of maybe 100s of others. But that does not necessarily mean that it is the best school for him or her.
However, here we are. My DS, a week ahead of Offers day, appears well positioned for 3 aptitude places, and guess what, we put those schools in positions 1, 2, and 3 out of 6 on the form. In all probability at least one of them will come through for us.
But all 3 of them would mean a 30-45 minute journey. School 4 on our list would be a 15 minute bus trip and school 5 - a brilliant school in its very unassuming way - a 7-minute walk. School 6? 5 min walk.
Did we do the right thing, carting DS round to those popular but relatively distant comps when we had Outstanding but extremely socially challenged ones right on our doorstep? How does this give us any moral high ground over grammar and private school parents who send DCs across London to avoid their “dreadful” local schools?
To be clear, all inner London comps are socially (and financially) challenged. But yep, some more so than others . . .
Most of DCs class didn’t do a single test and will attend those local schools and I hope do very well, many kids do. And if my DS ends up miserable at comp 1, 2 or 3 he’ll be back on waiting list for comps 4, 5 and 6, and, seeing as they are less popular, could have that option later. But for better or worse I don’t anticipate that. Like I mentioned before he’s an able, uncomplicated chap who will befriend anyone, adapt to most things, without prejudice.

I hate the mentions of "sharp-elbowed" middle-classes, the middle-classes get slated if they want their children to attend a private school and then slated if they try to get their dc into a good state school. At my dcs' old state primary school it was not only the middle-classes being sharp elbowed, every parent of every socioeconomic and ethnic background who had even the vaguest clue was discovering religion or moving out of London or if they could afford investigating private options because the local comprehensive was/is so bad. It's completely understandable to want your children to have the best education they can access, it's not a middle-class prerogative.

LOL, Maytuda, we just did the equivalent of your schools 4 and 5. Applied to the 3 nearest schools that we were pretty sure we could get a place in. Decided against the Wandsworth test and a bus and a walk and went to the school on tne doorstep. AnOutstanding Comp that does well by all it’s ability groups .

I'm always utterly bemused by the hand wringing over schools on here.

I grew up in inner city East London. My state secondary had a 30% GCSE pass rate.

11 GCSEs, 4 A levels, a first class undergrad degree from a RG university and an MA.

A friend of mine went to City of London school for girls and became so stressed she got a stomach ulcer and had to drop out and finish her A levels in a state secondary. She never even went to university in the end.

Extreme examples obviously, but horses for courses.

or if they could afford investigating private options because the local comprehensive was/is so bad

My local comp was "so bad" on paper but not in reality. Had some fabulous teachers. Made some great friends.

Then people wonder why many northern areas voted for brexit and can't stand London and the people who live there, it is because non of you have a clue.

Er mate you do realise that a great deal of London is council estates and working class people struggling to get by? Where do you think Grenfell tower was?

I have done both state and private secondary with my dcs and I’ve concluded that suitably qualified teachers in both sectors deliver similar standards of teaching, however we have found in the state sector there is always a problem ensuring schools have teachers qualified to degree level for the subject they are teaching particularly in maths and physics. Also a lot of state schools employ teachers who speak English as a second language but not fluently enough to teach effectively and this hampers dcs understanding of the subject.