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City of London Girls withdrawing offers

510 replies

Leo12345 · 13/02/2018 13:37

Hello! I was surprised to receive an email today from City of London Girls that their offer to DD is now withdrawn. I opened their original email with the offer and read that indeed this is their policy: first-comes-first-gets.
We are much more prone to go to LEH or if not Kingston Grammar, and now I bless this decision as I learnt something about City of London Girls character and aptitude towards its pupil.

My question is: do other schools (in particular LEH and Kingston Grammar) practice such policy?

We would accept the offer in LEH today then, though we are waiting for the tour in there.

OP posts:
ChocolateWombat · 15/02/2018 21:55

I agree that the time has come to re-name that Offer Holders day to something else, as its existence after offers have exploded just rubs salt into the wound, and perhaps suggests to people that places won't fill and offers explode until beyond that point.

I think the school itself has been surprised by how quickly places have filled - both gratifying and creates difficulties in its own right with things like offer holders day and what to do the following year.

cantkeepawayforever · 15/02/2018 22:00

It wouldn't need to be withdrawn if it was moved (e.g. to the day after offers were sent out) OR if offers didn't explode until afterwards.

If the intention is to allow those who are likely to take up offers to have a further insight into the school - otherwise why hold it? - then setting the ticking time bomb from the day after the event would be much more logical and much more humane?

sothatdidntwork · 15/02/2018 22:01

I don't think it will lead to fewer applications to CLSG necessarily - you apply quite a while before the final decision has to be made (3 months? - quite a long time in a 10 yr old dc's development and 'growing up') so I think dparents will think it's worth the £100 fee (is it that?) on the basis that if by Feb they want the place it was money well spent, and if not, well it's not a disastrous amount to lose.

Interesting that some regard the offer holder days as pointless - I think a lot of dparents, and even more to the point, dcs, find them useful. Yes the intention may be to persuade people to accept the place! - but that doesn't mean they're not informative. Presumably schools think they're useful and have been popular in the past or they wouldn't put them on.

That's another point I suppose - if in fact the offer holder days would result in a dc not choosing a school, it's in the school's interest as well as the dc's that that happens. The schools do all want students who are going to be happy there. All the schools involved here will be capable of getting the students very good results. So it comes down to 'feel' as to where a dc will be happy. An offer holders day can be quite useful in clarifying those feelings.

TheAntiBoop · 15/02/2018 22:17

Or perhaps they will follow the boys route and do an online test to get the numbers down for interview. That could be annoying.

AnotherNewt · 15/02/2018 22:22

"It might not be this at all, but precisely due to the need to honour offers under the traditional system."

The fuck up is that they made the wrong number of offers. Most schools which honour their offers do not run bulge classes year after year. Many have needed none whatsoever.

And of course The Spectator article is flawed. Because they are not really looking at how schools which run their lists successfully are doing it. Just how it can be done badly.

CLSG is offering to a pot of people, and exploding under some, so they are getting the girls within that pot whose parents responded in 9 hours (or whatever ridiculously short time it was) and others who remain interested go on a waitlist - and will be extremely likely to accept another school rather than hang around for a school which they know has filled its places, so the WL really doesn't work well if they do have drop outs.

OTOH if you have offered more prudently, maybe to same total number of prospective pupils, but with your actual preferred pupils receiving definite and the rest WL from the outset, you will not have the same outflow from WL should you need to use it. Yes, it takes skill, good communication with prospective parents (probably easier for schools who interview after exam) and communication between registrars (to try to work out the actual numbers of children behind the application numbers across schools), and continuing communication with prep heads.

There are plenty of examples of wildly oversubscribed schools in London who do not explode offers and who have not needed any bulge classes. Of course those who will not rescind offers still carry the risk of having to live with the consequences if they get it wrong - which is of course a significant incentive to get it right, and that is what almost invariably happens. If your 'offer' is simply 'place in the race to respond fast enough' then you have changed your risk into yet another parental stressor.

Offer Holders Days are very useful when still deciding between offers. Utterly useless when deadline (either normal or explosion) has passed - may as well skip ahead to the Joiners events

mehrlicht · 15/02/2018 23:46

For those who are now going to SHHS, my DD is in year 7 and we couldn't be happier. There is so much going on at the school, and so far the teachers are excellent with no obvious pressure, yet the GCSE and A Level results last year were on a par with City.

Whilst CLSG may have particular space issues for their policy, I am rather dubious about some of the schools' motives. Is there an element of showing off about how in demand they are, whilst turning a blind eye to the 11 year old's whose hard-won offer has been pulled away? Even if the message to parents is be quick, if there are more offers than girls then there will always be some who're told they had a place and then had it taken away- possibly those who were less informed by their school of the process and for whom a deposit of £3k in Channing's case is a lot of money. We would not tolerate it with a job or university offer, yet somehow it's OK to do that to a 10.11 year old?

DecisiontimeW9 · 16/02/2018 07:50

This happened last year and City closed their offers 12 days after offer day with regular communications from the registrar about capacity. Some girls did lose a place and now it has created a panic unlike anything I’ve seen or heard of before. On the positive side I do know some girls who have taken up the offer at City only to hold the place whilst contemplating other schools or awaiting a WL offer elsewhere, so I do hope that in the end some of the girls who have now been WL’d at City will get a place again. The shame in all of this is that it puts those waiting for Grammar school offers at a distinct disadvantage, unless you can afford to throw away the £1,500 deposit at City.

flyingbytheseat · 16/02/2018 12:04

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GU24Mum · 16/02/2018 13:17

Having read the threads this year and being about to go through the 11+ nightmare with DS, surely what we need is some sort of central system. Not sure it would ever work but.......
parents could be allowed to nominate the order in which they ranked the schools (and variables such as X school if scholarship but not otherwise). Schools could do their usual thing and rank the candidates then feed the into into the system. Some clever computer algorithm could then work out from the preferences who was going to get the places

No doubt impossible to implement - but worth a thought!!

cantkeepawayforever · 16/02/2018 13:34

So exactly the same system as state schools ... they could even include state schools, so each child genuinely got the highest preference school they qualified for ... and there could be a single allocation date...

Would need 11+ exams might need to be earlier, though.

GU24Mum · 16/02/2018 14:38

Pretty much but with different variables. It would surely make everything much easier (so of course will ever happen!)

jeanne16 · 16/02/2018 15:00

I think you are forgetting that private schools are actually businesses. They are competing for the best pupils.

LondonUSAmum · 16/02/2018 15:39

Our Head said a centralised system was being talked about but with the change to the consortium schools next year he thinks that likely won’t happen now. Or at least will take longer to happen as the consortium schools will want to test their new system for awhile before changing again.

I do have to chuckle at the arguments showing sympathy to the schools and how difficult this process is for them. Come on. They are businesses, shouldn’t feelings of sympathy err towards people and not corporations?

It’s the changing of the game or making it up as they go along that is so frustrating and wrong about CLGS actions of late.

Forestglade · 16/02/2018 15:44

Not read whole thread but shocked that a school can make an offer, delighting a 10 year old who will have worked hard and made it through tests and interview, only to find it's disappeared! We went through 11 plus some years ago with dd. City was top of our list before the tests but afterwards, with multiple offers, we took the opportunity to revisit on a normal school day and were put off by the cramped conditions that were more evident when seeing the school at work rather than on show. Two scholarships at other schools also complicated the picture. Dd went elsewhere in the end. With the best will in the world I don't think this decision can be made definitively in advance. So glad we're past all this now.

flyingbytheseat · 16/02/2018 15:57

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flyingbytheseat · 16/02/2018 15:58

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Needmoresleep · 16/02/2018 16:30

I wonder whether City have discovered that with regeneration in East London they are now first choice for more. whereas in the past they might have been fallback for bright girls West, South, and North London wanting SPGS, JAGS and NLCS respectively.

I don't think you can determine that accurately at 10+ how bright a girl is. City may have decided that local girls, without long commutes, do better and so are prioritising those that know from the outset that City is their first choice.

Keepcalmteach · 16/02/2018 16:45

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Keepcalmteach · 16/02/2018 16:50

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Backingvocals · 16/02/2018 16:55

There was also a rather ominous note in one of the many emails from city recently saying that fees are "under review". Of course we realise that all fees are under review all the time but the fact that this was said explicitly made me think a hefty increase is on the way - they are still at a small discount to other comparable schools.

BTW is this school privately owned? I thought it was owned by the City of London Corporation and which acts as a quasi public authority? I am hazy about this I confess.

ChocolateWombat · 16/02/2018 17:04

Needmoresleep, you are right. And as others have said they only have 70 places to offer on a very restricted site.

I would imagine they thought very carefully about this policy and weighed the pros and cons. They will be aware of the negative publicity and threads like this, and of course they would rather not have negative publicity. The fact it generates some, doesn't mean they don't care. They are at pains to point out to parents who are considering applying that people should consider how realistic journeys are, that places are very limited and that they encourage only applications for girls who would come to the school - and go as far as saying, for whom it would be first choice.

Are all the first choice girls top of the ability range? No, but when making their over-offers they only offer to those they are prepared to take - this is not the same as going towards the lower parts of a traditional WL, which may well be necessary after 5 March, when many people have accepted other places, as these were always their first choice, or because they decided that a bird in a hand is worth more than a bird in a bush. They know there will be enough first choice girls in the number of offers they make (but not which ones they are) who really want the place and will get their deposits in on time. These first choice families make sure they read the paperwork and understand that speed if of the essence and don't dilly dally.

Others who aren't quite sure, simply don't have the luxury of time after offers to choose. It's decide now or lose out. It's their choice, and they do have a choice - to thoroughly investigate before offers come out, so they are ready to write the cheque or make the bank transfer to City or somewhere else, or to decide to wait and think and re-visit after offers - but they make that choice in the knowledge that one of their choices may no longer exist. It is up to them.

Most people who have had offers explode weren't sure City was where they absolutely wanted. In reality, many who had exploding offers would have gone elsewhere. If they really wanted it and knew they wanted it, it's hard to understand how they could fail to understand the necessity of speed and miss out. Many of those complaining wouldn't have take City anyway, but don't like the fact that they weren't given 3 weeks to ponder and re-visit. How much should the school pander to them? In the end, they weren't going to be their future students anyway? That bit of bad publicity and moaning is a shame, and not something the school would ideally want, but they see it as a necessary cost that they are willing to bear, for the benefits it brings.

And all this talk about the devastated children who had an offer one day and two days later found they no longer did have. If they were genuinely devastated because it absolutely was their first choice and they had their hearts set on it, then I ask again why on earth hadn't their parents got on the case for this school they definitely wanted, but instead allowed the offer to explode when the danger of this was very clear. For the others, is suspect they weren't devastated at all - some kids have applied to so many schools, they barely know which one is which....for those whose decisions are very much still in the balance (and lots of people seem to suggest on here that they are far from decided and need lots more time and visits) then it's all still very much an open field and they and their parents will visit other places and choose, in all liklihood somewhere different anyway. I don't buy that loads of children are devastated by it. I don't think the parents are devastated either to be honest - not devastated because they depsarealty wanted City as their definite top choice and missed out - yes, perhaps a few who didn't get their acts together, but the majority are not devestataed, but annoyed and cross that a school has chosen to do this - because they feel entitled to time to revisit and make a leisurely decision, because they are paying and because that had become the norm. The school dictating the terms and forcing choices to be sooner really annoys people, even when most of them would not have had City as their first choice anyway. Annoyed, not devastated.

Again, the school just accepts it has to bear this annoyance from mostly parents who wouldn't have taken up the offer anyway. It's a bit of a shame, but when looking at their overall process, the far bigger gain, which comes from this approach is that they have a seemingly full cohort of people who had definitely chosen City, rather than those who they had to draw from a WL, who might be lower ability or for whom it wasn't their top choice. Having top choice candidates counts for a lot - they have chosen in full knowledge of the journey and are committed to the school and to bei g fully involved in things outside of the school day as well as within. Once you have people for whom it is their third or fourth choice, you're often looking at people with difficult journeys, who simply won't be able to stay after school....and in a smallish school, this can make a real difference to the overall broader experience of school.

I think on balance, City will be pleased with their outcomes this year. No doubt some who have accepted might pull out later, but the school hope this will be few. No doubt they are already planning how to handle all of this for next year, when word will be out even more about the tight time scales. In the end, no one needs to apply to City who don't like the school or its application process. It's a free choice. I suspect they still won't be short of applicants at all, or worry too much about the loss of those who aren't strongly committed enough to have been able to make a choice and a decision by offer day.

All schools are more interested in the parents who will say 'yes' to an offer. All schools face the problem of not knowing which parents they offer to will say 'yes'. City has just found a way to find that information out more quickly than many other schools. They feel knowing it sooner creates a stronger school, because the limited site won't be squeezed and current pupil timetables compromised by the uncertainty generated by the current system. They out that ahead of courting potential parents who in all liklihood won't have the school as top choice anyway. It's a thought out choice, which I think makes sense for the school - and I'd want any school I chose to put the school and it's pupils above other potential, but unlikely parents annoyance.

Backingvocals · 16/02/2018 17:08

when the danger of this was very clear

This is the whole point - it wasn't clear. We actually had 9 business hours to get there - no one knew that would happen, not even City. I work FT and am a single parent - it could have been impossible for me to get there in that time frame. As it happened I basically have been off sick with flu for two weeks and dragged myself there in time just as I started to recover - I nearly didn't go as I felt so ill and felt sure I had a few more days Shock

ChocolateWombat · 16/02/2018 17:22

KeepCalm, you are right that loads have it as a back-up. Loads really want state grammars or another more local independent, but apply because it is good academically and they feel they need multiple back ups. If everyone was offered a place, a large proportion of them would turn it down. So in order to fill they do need to over offer - all schools over offer, but City needs to do it more than most....and there is always a risk of over filling then and as has been said, their site again, more than most can't cope with a bulge class.

Despite there being lots of independent schools in London, City is different due to its location making it a potential back up but not first choice of far more families, plus their more restricted site making the hilly uncertain outcomes from offers, more potentially difficult. I do t think people understand the different position City is in, based on these 2 factors - they decide it is just greed, or inability to plan their offers.

If the school makes say 100 offers for 70 places, it could be that in one year 80 will say no because in the end they choose the state grammar or a closer independent. The school then has to fill 50 places from a WL where again the majority have a different top choice, so they have to go far down. Perhaps they have to go as low as the 400th person in order to fill, because once you're at WL, you find most have accepted somewhere else in the first round, or have another WL offer too. It's equally feasible that in a given year of 800 applicants, the 100 offers do just by chance go to 90 families who have it as top choice and all 90 say 'yes' and the school now has to have a bulge class - which due to lack of space means some classes being taught in less than ideal classrooms or having peculiar timetables....not really what people are paying for.

So here what happens - the school makes offers to perhaps 250 applicants. They are well over offering, figuring that many won't have the school as top choice, but there should be 70 in there who are committed and keen. The first 70 turning up with the paperwork and deposit get the places. These are people who really wanted the places. They might not be the top 70 performers in the exam, but the school is confident all of them can cope with the pace of the school and do well. There maybe some who would have chosen the school and didn't reply in time - it's a shame, but the terms were made clear....and the rest who didn't return the paperwork wouldn't have done so now or in 3 weeks anyway, because they have already or will decide that somewhere else is their preference.

I think City's response is to its very particular location and restricted site which makes them more susceptible and in a more extreme way, to the problems that arise from not knowing how many applicants really want the school and will say yes.

ChocolateWombat · 16/02/2018 17:28

I don't get this thing about 'couldn't get there' - if someone wants something enough, they put plans and contingency plans in place to get there.

When people want to buy new houses off plan which require a deposit cheque, if they are serious, they make sure they are there before the time starts and they change their plans or organise for someone else to go for them if they can't - and they know that if they don't do this and go the following day, they may have missed out. No one knows exactly when all the houses will be sold, but you don't take chances if you really want one.

No one would expect the state sector to consider their school application if they had missed the deadline due to illness, or work. A deadline - either an opening point or a closing point, is just that.

We are used to things selling out if we aren't quick off the mark. We don't expect to reserve lots of new build houses without paying at the point of reservation. If you like, City is simply saying to those who receive offers 'you are now qualified to apply for a school place - it's first come, first served. Until you pay, you don't have a formal offer'

sothatdidntwork · 16/02/2018 17:32

As a matter of interest, does anyone know if CLSG ever had to go to its waiting list in "the old days" ie pre exploding offers? Indeed, did it even have a waiting list? I don't think I've ever heard of anyone being on it (though obviously I don't know that many people so that is not very conclusive!)

I'd always assumed it did fill its places from its first round offers - it is such a highly sought after school and I'd assumed it was 'top choice' for many many applicants.