City of London Girls withdrawing offers

[Leo12345]

Hello! I was surprised to receive an email today from City of London Girls that their offer to DD is now withdrawn. I opened their original email with the offer and read that indeed this is their policy: first-comes-first-gets.
We are much more prone to go to LEH or if not Kingston Grammar, and now I bless this decision as I learnt something about City of London Girls character and aptitude towards its pupil.

My question is: do other schools (in particular LEH and Kingston Grammar) practice such policy?

We would accept the offer in LEH today then, though we are waiting for the tour in there.

[sooooooonowwhat]

Agree 100% Firefox and Railworker - it's very hard to gauge where and indeed if your dc will get offers and so part of that is managing expectations for them. I know some people who had definite first choice schools but we didn't and we didn't encourage ds to as we didn't want to set him up for disappointment. We wouldn't be tempting fate by "discussing e-transfers, fax confirmations and iban codes at the interview stage if not before" as we genuinely weren't that confident as to where ds would get an offer and we didn't want to raise his hopes or ours falsely. We knew we would be happy enough with any of the schools we had applied to but now that we have a choice we want to make sure it's the best one for him and us as a family. We've all waited to hear from the schools re when the results come out and all been told a date when offer letters have to be accepted, why then is it so unreasonable for people to want to do a confirmatory tour of the schools before making what is a huge financial commitment. I don't have a dd but if I did CLSG would be off the list of options for that reason alone.

[Backingvocals]

That’s exactly it sooooo. I’ve worked very hard not to let dd get over invested in any option and made sure she understands there are financial considerations for me as well.

[ChocolateWombat]

I think the difficulty for schools in London particularly has increased in recent years, with parents putting in for so many exams. Not he fact this has happened and so many people have multiple offers has actually destabilised the system.

Many schools go with the Trinity agreement of a set offer day. Many are ready to offer well before, but don't offer early because this would just create a bigger arms race. Many make clear that an interview means a place is very likely, but won't go as far as saying an offer will come until the actual date. Interestingly some will tell people who are there for scholarship/bursary interviews that this means they will definitely get an offer of some sort - I guess the scholarship ability ones are the kids they really want, so some will make it clear they will get an offer in advance.

Some schools are in a position where they will offer a certain number of places and perhaps 1/6 will accept - because most parents have applied to 4 or 5 or 6 schools. For some schools, some years 5/6 accept and another year 1/6 accept - it can vary wildly. So knowing how many places to offer is very difficult. And why does it matter? Parents seem to be suggesting schools should look to the needs of prospective parents and not consider the implications of the whole process on themselves - well this is just daft, because the school's first responsibility is to its current pupils and to securing the future of the school, not to any individual parent or group of parents who might like to sit on offers.
It matters to the school, because by having a deadline after national offers day on 1 March (5 March is a common acceptance date) many schools find that when they wait to go to WL until then, many of the WL people have already accepted another offer and paid a deposit and now won't take a place. That isn't good for the school. Some of these would have taken it if they had an offer initially. And the school then has to go down the WL to fill and we even hear stories of schools (v good schools too) having to phone people who didn't even make it to interview, to see if they'd like a place - because they need to fill. Perhaps parents don't have much sympathy for this and the plight of the school with un filled places, but it impacts on everyone in the school in some way. And what about if they over offer and get too many students saying yes. They can't then turn some away but must honour the offers. The implications of that can be serious too - in some cases an extra form needs to be put on, costing a lot of money - necessary, but just because of a few above what could be fitted into the existing arrangement. This then has cost implications for staffing and buildings, and sometimes there just isn't space without some classes somewhere in the school being squashed into less good facilities - again it's an impact on the school and its existing people.
London schools (and City won't be the only one, but others might be less affected due to location) have been hugely affected by the increase in schools that people sit for. There has been huge uncertainty and control over numbers, with negative implications and they simply decided it had to stop and they didn't need to suffer the consequences and ultimately the children in the school didn't need to suffer the consequences anymore. I think exploding offers is a bold move, because people don't react well to it and because most schools aren't popular enough to do it or if they are, might be too scared to do it.
In the end it has benefitted the school - they are full with people who absolutely wanted City and who the school had selected as qualified. Isn't their job to do the best for the school, the current students and to achieve the best future students, rather than to continue with an applications approach which has caused many problems and can be avoided?

[sothatdidntwork]

This makes me wonder why the common offer day is not just the same day as state school offers. It wouldn't solve all the problems cw refers to, but would help those parents who are applying as a back-up if they don't get the state school they want.

I am not sure about the argument that people have had enough time to make their mind up before the offers come out. If you are giving your dc a say (which some parents will) you may well not have wanted to encourage dc to decide on a firm preference before the offer day, in case dc don't get an offer from the preferred schools. So some parents leave detailed discussions with dc about preferences until after they know what offers they've got. As people say, next year dcs/dparents will need to decide even faster.

[sothatdidntwork]

Ah - see I have cross posted with many people about the managing dcs' expectations!

Yes, some dparents will say it's entirely their decision, others will definitely want to involve the dc in the choice. Depends on the dc, the family dynamic etc. I think a dc can sometimes sense things about a school, and whether it will suit them, that the dparents do not - so would give them a say although not necessarily the final decision. Not saying the other approach is wrong though!

[AnotherNewt]

"Isn't their job to do the best for the school, the current students and to achieve the best future students, rather than to continue with an applications approach which has caused many problems and can be avoided?"

Yes. They could manage their system like nearly every other school. All of whom are facing the sample pressures. And who get their numbers right. And are doing so without using exploding offers.

Yes, it's a response to the pressures you list. But not a good one. And not something that those pressures must invariably lead to.

Whatever the verbiage, they are making offers they will not honour.

[TheAntiBoop]

The boys system is annoying as you get offers at different times but I prefer that to these exploding offers! Dreading when dd goes through it all!!

[Dragthing]

We have been caught out by this and DD is absolutely shattered by the abrupt withdrawal of the offer just a few days after the lovely personalised letter. 'My future is over' and 'They've ruined my life'. They are not transparent. The offer letter highlighted the deadline of 6th March and the 'offer holders open morning' next week; it gave no indication that they had applied airline-style overbooking. They seem not to appreciate that they are dealing with children.
To make matters worse we had an email the next day addressed to offer holders which gave us hope that they had in fact honoured the offer, only to have our hopes dashed once more by a retraction email in the afternoon.
Their system is badly flawed, and their handling of the situation has been callous. Why over-offer to this extent? DD's current school are appalled.
I am considering going to the press.

[Ivebeenaroundtheblock]

in your particular case Drag why were you not prepared to accept the offer on the day it was received?

[LondonUSAmum]

Dragthing, our current school is appalled as well even though our Head warned us we must accept the offer as soon as possible if we wanted it.

Going to the press is not a bad idea...best to let everyone know how it turned out this year so they know what they are getting into next year should they want to apply.

To say it was a transparent process is not accurate. And this is supported by City’s letter withdrawing the offers and their statement that they apologise and did not expect this to happen. Doesn’t seem like a well thought out transparent process on their part at all.

As someone earlier said next year people will have to be lined up at City’s door on the day offers come out and maybe camping out days before anticipating an offer to make sure they don’t miss out.

[schoolmadness2016]

I am sorry Drag. This sounds heartbreaking. Is the school at this point reachable by phone ? Perhaps if you explain that it was your first choice and you were away for half term ( and happy to pay the deposit ASAP) they could put your dd on the top of the waitlist. I am certain a few families will pull out . Does your daughter have other offers ? What absolute white behaviours by the school. If it doesn’t work out I would def go to the press !

[MN164]

Schools are working together to make the process less stressful and give students time to consider their offers. 11 year olds need that and can't be expected to have the emotional resilience to deal with exploding offers.

Imagine if all schools used exploding offers. What a horrific process that would be.

City clearly doesn't care about that and also has no interest in coordination with other schools for overall and wider benefit. It sets a selfish tone and a poor example which is why we let their offer explode in their office and choose another school.

[Backingvocals]

drag that’s awful. As I said I only knew from reading MN last year. I think there will still be a lot of movement - so the place may come up again. But I share your concern and distress at this.

[Dragthing]

@Ivebeenaroundtheblock - I seriously had no idea I needed to act so quickly. Maybe I should have paid more attention to the small print bu I'm a lone parent with a full time job and I don;t ahve anyone to share the load and double check. We came away on holiday on Saturday - we're abroad now - and it didn't occur to me that I needed to take the papers straight over on Friday. I did book straight onto the Offer Holders morning which was scheduled for next week. I feel so badly let down and I cannot tell you how distressed my daughter was.

[Dragthing]

In contrast to City's cavalier and insensitive policy I was struck by this from South Hampstead High School. Their offer letter states 'Please note, however, that we will of course honour all offers until our closing date, in line with HMC and GSA protocol'.

[TheAntiBoop]

I can't see how they can continue it as they'll have a queue round the block next year and parents who can afford to lose a deposit will take the place regardless. So they'll end up havibg to dip into the waiting list anyway.

The only people who seem happy with the system are people with girls at the school

[TheAntiBoop]

SHHS aren't innocent in all this either though as their 4+ system leads to queueing round the block (unless they've changed it in the last couple of years).

[Lotsofsighing]

The head at SHHS said that it’s really not complicated to work out how many offers to make and there’s no excuse for exploding offers.

We’ve just got a naggy email from Channing hassling is for a deposit. We’re away and really want to revisit. It’s making me lean towards Shhs (Drag, are you thinking same?)

Why is it such a disaster to go to wait list anyway? The selection is so arbitrary that I bet there are loads of smart kids there. And if these schools are as flipping good as they say they are, they should be able to do well by all pupils.

Dd had scholarship interview at a co Ed that doesn’t even send offers until the 15th!

We didn’t actually apply to City. Bizarrely that didn’t stop them sending us an email rejecting our daughter!

[Pradaqueen]

I do agree with Chocolatewombat for the most part regarding the need to employ exploding offers because of parents holding onto multiple offers. You cannot possibly have 8 first choices. This seriously affects other families where your 7th best choice is their first and their child maybe number 8 on a WL. All parents naturally want the best for their kids and all schools want the best and brightest students.

I am a CLSG parent so obviously I have a different viewpoint to the majority on this thread. I can honestly say the experience of incorrect emails etc couldn't be further from our experience last year. Part of the reason we chose city was the clear communication and very precise emails which arrived exactly when they said they would. So the experience detailed here is really sad to hear and I'm sure the confusion must be awful for those affected. That aside, I doubt however in the change of admissions registrar meant that the wording on the offer paperwork was changed. It was really clear it was an overoffering situation which is normal for indie schools - although they may be less popular so not so visibly affected. City had between 800-900 girls sitting the exam for 75 places available (assuming all 25 from the prep move up which is generally the case). They cannot put on a 'bulge' class as the school is in a listed building. There simply isn't the space. This is a fact. Indeed the school's expansion plan announced recently involves utilising basement space and a current car park. This year I know they over- offered by far less than last year but it is impossible for the school to know if city is all parents first choice. And it was possible last year to scan the offer-emailed paperwork and send the deposit by bank transfer and all acceptances were recorded in strict deposit received order so no need to queue around the block. Last year the exploding offer finished ahead of the offer holders Morning, and this did seem unexpected by the school. From our point of view, the 'we are 65% full' email meant that there would've been less than 27 places available to everyone, hence we got a wriggle on. I do appreciate that due to the speed of acceptances this email did not appear to have been sent this year which is frustrating for those off on hols etc. Those places got accepted in under 12 hours. However, last year all offer holders were entitled to attend even if they had missed the deadline. My understanding is that the WL did not move to any substantial degree last year and this may be because of the fact that genuine 'this is our first choice' parents accepted very quickly. I know that there does seem to be more local girls to the school than in previous years so an exploding offer may well contribute to this. The school year after year has suffered from parents being offered a place and then rejecting citing 'travel issues' or 'commuting distance'. This has been a constant source of frustration for the school as parents know where it is located.

City was always our first choice and although my DD did receive other offers (and two of those were substantial scholarship offers) the standard access to non academic activity - music/drama/art was very important to us. As was the socially diverse backgrounds that the school attracts due to the generous funding from the livery companies etc. We knew she would be offered places at Grammars (and she was) but despite the excellence in results, the arts provisions were being cut because the entrance examination did not encourage those children to come through the system.

My thoughts remain the same as last year in that primary and prep schools are complicit in this 'educational arms race' and should only complete a maximum of 4 references for any pupil to reduce the situation where it is possible to hold 5/6/7/8offers.

I do wish those disappointed all the best in resolving the situation but if you are still genuinely interested,I would return the paperwork and explain in writing that if the WL moves, you would accept the place.

[TheAntiBoop]

Exploding offers are not common.

City boys don't and they have equally high application to offer ratios. Our local boys school has an even worse ratio but manage to use their waiting list effectively despite being one of the earliest schools to offer

[AnotherNewt]

"I do agree with Chocolatewombat for the most part regarding the need to employ exploding offers because of parents holding onto multiple offers"

This is very rare (because of size of non-refundable payment taken on acceptance - deposit straight away plus non-refundable first term).

What is and always has been common is for parents to use the time until the offer deadline to weight up which school they really want, perhaps going to offer holder open days, and considering best fit for their DC now (not rough idea when they applied months or years ago).

If schools act with integrity and honour their offers, everyone wins (and yes, schools do get their numbers right with that approach too). As PP put it, HMC (and GDST) endorse this as the right thing.

It really is a case of what ethos you want in a school.

[ChocolateWombat]

Schools like City do lose out by going right up to the deadline and honouring all offers.
If they promise to honour all offers, they will have to make fewer offers. Even with this, they may still get too many acceptances for their listed buildings which cannot be altered, or find they haven't enough because 7/8 of those they offered to had another top school as their first choice in the end. By the time they go to WL, many of those (who also had another as their true top choice) have gone elsewhere and they have to accept a lower standard or simply not fill.
They are losing out. Their exploding offer system means they can get the right number. They can over offer and know they can accept the right number. They have effectively gone to WL in advance, by over offering, but only to the point they are happy to do so. And they are full before the end of half term, whilst other schools face weeks of uncertainty over numbers, plus the knock on financial costs of that over many years.
Openness about the policy is key and the information is put very clearly. Why any parent about to invest in a project effectively costing over £100k wouldn't carefully read the terms of the offer and thoroughly research what has happened in recent years in response to the schools approach, I simply cannot understand.

Surely people wouldn't buy a house without thoroughly investigating first? Surely people wouldn't expect to get a sought after first class seat on a plane, which know seelsmout within hours, three weeks later?

Parents had the info. There might have been lots of cock ups over interviews and other paperwork, but the info about when they had received enough acceptances, other offers would be withdrawn was clear. No one could know when that would occur - not the school nor the parents, so if you really wanted a place, you would do everything to get that in - either queueing, or as others have said, by sending the deposit electronically and the paperwork too - yes, it required a bit of pre-planning and thought to do so, but if it's your first choice and you've read the terms because you're seriously interested, surely you act and don't just hope or assume you'll have 4 days or a week or 3 weeks. Although it's hard, I think really,some parents messed up here if it really was their definite top choice - they took their eyes off the ball and either didn't read the terms or didn't look into what had happened last year, so heeded the warnings that time really was of the essence. If you understand the process in the year before, when you apply, you simply don't plan a holiday over offers time, or leave yourself in a position where you still don't know if you want it - you respond to the circumstances to make sure that you can get a place. I find it astonishing that people didn't do that. And I expect the same thing will happen next year too.

Is it the equivalent of not getting your state school application in on time, or not returning the acceptance form? I don't know.

It's a real shame for those families who really wanted places for definite, but I think they have to take responsibility for it rather than blaming the school. Some people certainly will pull out later once state school offers come in....so if it genuinely is top choice, sending the paperwork and a cheque and an email stating it is definitely top choice, might still result in a place. Of course, that will be later from the WL - the experience many other parents have to go through with other schools because of the non-exploding offer system that those schools operate. For those who weren't WListed, but suddenly find themselves in that position, perhaps it then clarifies a little how unpleasant that position is and that City mostly avoid it by their approach. And finally, when City do go to their WL in the end, for a few places, perhaps as always they will find that actually lots of those people then turn down the offer - again, illustrating how this happens to all schools and the problems it causes. Parents are happy to be the beneficiaries of multiple offers and choice and to turn down lots of offers - but they simply don't really consider the effect this has on the schools and other families.

[TheAntiBoop]

City are not unique in the dilemmas they face yet they seem to be one of very few schools that use this system

[Eastlondmum]

We found ourselves in this unfortunate position last year. Coming from a state primary and no previous knowledge of this exploding offer concept, we naively assumed parents would wait for national offer day or, at least, attend the planned offers holders meetings before finalising their decisions. We had no heads up from our headteacher, which, I believe, puts state school applicants at a further disadvantage. Anyway, on a positive note, we accepted another school for DD and she is extremely happy there. I thought she would have been disappointed about the city experience but she was soon over it. Possibly it helped that city was not her favourite school as she found it a bit claustrophobic and did not like the lack of natural light. It was however our favourite due to the short commute, 20 minutes compared to 45 for the current school. I find it ridiculous that some parents would deliberately have their kids travel one hour to school because it’s a few position higher up on some league tables while they have perfectly good schools on their doorstep, so we lost out on our most local independent option. But then everyone has different priorities.
For all of those on this chat who had their City offers withdrawn, I share your disappointment, but don’t despair. Choose from one of your other options and you will see that your DD will fit in perfectly fine and will have in her class girls as intellectually able.

[sothatdidntwork]

I do think the offer holder visits can be very useful and may lead to a different preference from the one you originally thought you (and your dc, now four or five months older than when looking round before the applications) would have. This policy means you can't wait for the offer holder day.

What is the logical end-point here? I'm trying to work it out. It means yes everyone who wants a place there will need to be even quicker off the mark next year.
Will other schools react by doing the same? - do they think they are losing potential students, or do they take the view that those parents who immediately accept the CLSG offer would have ended up doing so 3 weeks later anyway - so at least this way the other schools find out sooner and can go to the WL if necessary.