City of London Girls withdrawing offers

[Leo12345]

Hello! I was surprised to receive an email today from City of London Girls that their offer to DD is now withdrawn. I opened their original email with the offer and read that indeed this is their policy: first-comes-first-gets.
We are much more prone to go to LEH or if not Kingston Grammar, and now I bless this decision as I learnt something about City of London Girls character and aptitude towards its pupil.

My question is: do other schools (in particular LEH and Kingston Grammar) practice such policy?

We would accept the offer in LEH today then, though we are waiting for the tour in there.

Had no idea about exploding offer system...totally new to the system....We are sitting on many offers right now as want to discuss with our DS who has received these offers and he is on a school trip for this entire week !!!

Kingston Grammar/Highgate/UCS are amongst our offers !!

We can't decide without him, he is happily skiing with rest of 40 students in his school...!has no idea about his offers !

I agree Foxpants
As soon as we had our offers (previous years) i accepted straight away.
You should really know which one you want.. you've been thinking about this for a long time, surely?

Also if you want to hold a private school place as "insurance" then pay the deposit. Actually paying the deposit is quite a moment of realisation ime.

Many of these schools that do this cannot physically put on an extra class. It's not always possible to get the numbers exactly right.

But yes, the 24 hour CLSG time bomb is quite ludicrous...

Well, for another example of how CLGS is just not cutting it this admissions season, we have received an e-mail this morning saying how delighted they are we have accepted a spot at CLGS for our daughter in Sept snd could we please withdraw our offers at other schools....but our email yesterday said our offer was withdrawn! Quite the error to make on their part... of course my emails and phone calls to clear this up have all gone unanswered.

What an emotional rollercoaster to put families on! Thank goodness I have shielded my DD from all of this. As a results she is still in love with the school,

I got that email too - although we had accepted. And then an email retracting that first email with apologies. And then the same email again asking us please to withdraw from any other pending places to make the applications process easier. TBF it's not my job to make the school offers process easier - it's their job. I am holding on to a couple of offers because this is a huge decision for us and because DD may decide to go to state school if she gets in. These are huge decisions for ordinary families - with huge financial implications. Their attitude is pretty awful.

When I heard about this last year, I thought it was awful, but on reflection, I can see why they do it.

Firstly, it is clear that this is the approach. No-one is left in the dark unless they don't read the paperwork.

Why do they do it? It's because they are on a tight space city site and need to fill to capacity but cannot overfill. Due to location, very large numbers apply and for many, it is not a serious option but very much a back up in case people don't get a state grammar offer, or an alternative independent. When the school makes offers to these vast numbers, they have no way of knowing who will take up the offer and who won't - there is more uncertainty for them than for many schools. So what can they do? They can offer to the exact number and then use a wait list after state school options day. The problem is that WL don't deliver very good solutions for schools if they have to recruit a sizeable number from them. Firstly, after national offers day, large numbers on the WL have decided on either another independent and paid their deposit or have selected a state school. The school finds they have to go down and down the wait list to people they would prefer not to take, in all honesty. Some of the people who say 'no' on the WL at this point, would have said 'yes' if getting an offer in the over-offering of exploding offers, because it was their choice, but later they are swayed by an alternative offer.

By using the exploding offers, the school can over offer without fear of having too many accept which they simply cannot accommodate. They know that those who really really want the place and for whom it is absolutely their first choice, will say 'yes'. If they can fill with them, they are happy. Anyone who was never serious about it, simply won't accept and pay. And those who really want the state school place and think they have a good chance won't accept either - and the school are fine with that, because the vast majority of them were never going to come anyway. The fact the school will lose a few of those who they wanted and then didn't get the state school places they hoped for, is a cost the school is willing to bear, becaue of the benefits overall they gain. And they judge it is their duty to the school and the current and future pupils to deliver that, more than to allow people to hold multiple offers or spend ages deciding.

So now City is full. Other schools have no idea whether they have over offered or will fill up....they won't know that until after national offers day. Many of them will then find they have to put on expensive bulge classes if more accept than they hoped for (City has avoided the need to do that) and others will have to go to their WL, or even to people who weren't even interviewed in order to fill up, taking those of lesser ability (CIty won't have to do that)

I agree that for people waiting for State school offers its very hard.....but the info was always out there. It's no surprise. For those with other independent offers, to be honest, I have no sympathy if they missed out - City is challenging the accepted culture of people sitting on multiple offers for weeks and delaying making decisions, which actually then affect other families too, because wait lists cannot move. It isn't unreasonable to expect people to have basically made a decision before the results come in. It isn't unreasonable to expect them to commit to it quickly. They can then release their other offers and those schools will perhaps offer places to WL people - they will be indirectly benefitted by Citys speedy policy.

In the end, having a lomg acceptance period creates uncertainty for schools and often for families who are hoping for a WL place and don't have any offers. Having a long acceptance and sitting on multiple offers was the culture, but perhaps it's going to become something of the past, because it creates huge problems. There is no obligation to indulge this previous practice of people having ages to decide. Parents feel outraged, but Citybis full of people who they were prepared to offer to. It is done and dusted. The parents who have accepted know that their cohort will be full of other families who had absolutely chosen City and who the school had chosen too.

Backing vocals - I think your response is what they are trying to minimise. If your DD finally pulls out and goes to the state or other option which you are holding, they may find they have to go to their WL and go fairly far down it to find someone who by then, who hasn't paid a deposit elsewhere or emotionally committed to somewhere else. At least they will then have your deposit and the existence of the deposit will mean that those who do as you are, will be reduced in number, because many won't want to lose the deposit.

I understand about you wanting to see your state offer. It's not unreasonable. However, regarding the independent offers, I really don't think people need weeks to make a choice. It is up to people to look round throughly before exams and make their decisions so they can move quickly. Holding multiple independent offers means other families can't get given a WL place, in this crucial period before deposits are paid. They start looking for and accepting alternatives - if people released their other independent offers faster, more would get what were their real higher choices. That's why City encourage people to release them quickly - it's simply acknowledging the inter-woven nature of the application, offers and acceptance system. When people hold onto multiple offers for long periods it really does create problems.

So imagine that you get the state school offer too - you might still be undecided. You could accept the state school offer and having paid the deposit at City, still hold that offer too. Some people do this and hold both offers until July or even September - they feel especially entitled to do this when they have paid a deposit. And what is the effect? If they eventually go to the independent school, a child who could have had a state place by then has bought uniform and been to the welcome days of another school and perhaps will decide it's too much trouble to change over - they end up with the less good option. And state school option is chosen, the independent is left perhaps with a term of fees, but possibly an empty place for several years, or certainly taking a far less qualified candidate because that's who is available at that point.

I understand waiting for state school offers, but I think all other places can and should be released as soon as possible.

Also, if someone is about to save £150k for a state school place, I think they can part with £1.5k as insurance for a private school place.

I disagree though glad to see the school has the support of the parents.

There will be people away on holidays (e.g.skiing or even further afield) who haven't even seen the offer letter yet, much less responded to requests of money. They've missed out.

There will be others who are Band A at Henrietta Barnet or in marginal places for other schools who have been offered a bursary to partially cover fees but would prefer an entirely free option. They've missed out.

It has put me off all schools that do this. Other schools manage well - why can't Channing and CLGS? I don't buy the tight space argument I'm afraid.

Yes those are all the reasonable considerations of someone wondering whether they can afford over £100,000 of expenditure. No one should make that decision quickly. Since we are waiting for a state place - and as a single parent I'm hoping for that - I'm taking all the time I need.

Of course this is a difficult time but none of the other schools DD has had offers from have done this. I will actually release most of them this week but the idea that I must hurry up and make this massive decision within two business days when I don't have all the data available to me is crazy. Oh and I don't think many people will hold the offer until September. After this term you become liable for the whole first term of fees whether you go or not.

But, chocolatewombat, whilst I can sympathise a bit with your viewpoint, I don't actually buy that it is significantly harder for CLSG than most of the other schools we see mentioned on these threads. Also, the ridiculously short timeframe within which offers exploded this year (much sooner than last year I think) suggests an element of panic acceptances, perhaps amongst those for whom £1,500 is a drop in the ocean. I wouldn't be surprised if a significant number pull out. Next year, if your acceptance isn't in by the end of the day offers come out, you will be too late because everyone will remember what happened this year and rush round to the school the same day. It's nuts!

It reminds me of the Emanuel registration situation and when my eldest son applied we visited in October of year 6 and then registered shortly afterwards. However word of the limited registration numbers gets out and creates panic and In recent years parents have needed to register by the beginning of year 5. Presumably the school recognised that this was untenable and have changed their process accordingly.

I don't know about others but our prep was quite strict on the amount of time dc's could take off to look around schools. ds has a chronic health condition which means regular hospital appointments which they have been willing to accommodate (time off every week for the last few years) but we were told flat out that ds wouldn't be allowed to attend group tours in school hours for all schools we were applying to as it would mean missing too much school. We were told to apply and then take a good look around after we had received our offers. As parents we did go and see every school and ds managed to attend Saturday open days for all the schools we applied for but one carefully choreographed morning was not enough imo to get a view of the schools for ds, who is now completely undecided and says he has three 'first choices'. Thankfully we don't have a dd or we would definitely have missed out on City as ds would not have been able to make a decision in that short a time. We are not 'sitting on offers', and I contacted all schools the day we received our offers to ask for another look around, but we aren't willing to make that decision until we have done those second tours which will have to wait until after half term.

I think it rankles because it isn't a typical practice and because often people who are paying, or considering paying, feel entitled to time and some feel entitled to hold lots of offers - it challenges this rather.

Perhaps it will become more widespread?

In the end, City do it, because they can. They are popular enough to fill within a couple of days with people from their first round of offers (which admittedly is of course bigger than the no of places, hence them exploding). People who absolutely want it as their definite choice understand the system and make sure they can get the acceptance in. They don't go on holiday or not have access to a second signature, in the same way anything with a really tight timeframe can be met by people who really want it. The school has suffered from essentially lots of time wasters in the past. I realise people won't like that phrase, but the approach means only those seriously considering a place visit and apply.
I think it's widely accepted that the whole thing with people applying to loads of schools has got out of hand - it's based on fear and what everyone else is doing. Perhaps this will help reduce this a little and if this process is used elsewhere, a positive will be that children don't have to sit multiple exams in multiple locations.
Of course not all schools are as popular as City and couldn't dream of using this system. They massively over offer because they know that most won't accept and they are down the packing order.
Indeoendent education, in the end is a business. This school is aiming to optimise its own position given the location and circumstances they find themselves in. It ruffles some feathers, but at the end of the day, City has more certainty of numbers and of the quality of their students, than if they used the traditional approach. That's why they do it and parents who were always dead set on it and who have understood how it works (and it is clear) understand how it benefits the school. They are more interested in that than keeping lots of people who won't be going there anyway happy, the the detriment of their future. In a free market for education, that's what you get.

Good points Choco but it isn't the policy itself that rankles but more their CONDUCT.

Did they explicitly talk about it at the Heads talk at Open Day? My friends who were there tell me not.

Did they put a real time update on their website or Twitter Feed, so that offer holders could see where they were capacity wise? My friends tell me they didn't?

Did they at least email all offer holders when they had already received say 50% acceptances to warn them that they were in danger of missing out? My friends tell me that they rec over no such warning.

If CLSG really believe in this policy, then they should be willing explicitly and overtly stand behind it. Simply slipping it into their T&C's in the offer letter isn't good enough imo. (And I have no vested interest as I have 2 DS's)

Correct none of that happened.

Of course you're right that it needs to be spelled out at each and every stage of the application process. And yes, warnings of having reached a certain capacity made clear. I know that they did warn when they reached certain capacities last year.
I know that they filled faster than they'd imagined last year and it seems were caught on the hop again this year. It's not good enough, nor is the bungling of info about interviews etc etc reported on here.

My prediction for 2019 would be parents queuing up at City’s door at 8am after results day with the requisite paperwork and cheque book to purchase their option. And I shudder to think what happens if more parents are queued up than places - they would need to use the proceeds from this year’s option sales deposits to fund a riot police presence .
Disgraceful.

i'm sure my husband would have been discussing e-transfers, fax confirmations and iban codes at the interview stage if not before.
i find it very strange that people are wanting "one more look around" or to discuss it with the child at this stage in what can be a one year process.
personally i see the timing issue and the holding of multiple offers as a problem that should be addressed in the long run. if the process of applying was smoother the need to tutor and prep might naturally correct itself.

Why don't they offer less places and have a more effective waiting list system? If they want quick answers reduce the time to accept.

Seems to work for other schools and is a lot less stressful

Agree with TheAntiBoop

Hardly any schools use exploding offers. I think it does tell you something about the attitude of the school towards parents.

As schoolmadness2016 infers, where does it all end? What will they do if next year if they have hordes of parents all trying to physically hand in forms? Can you imagine if you were a parent in the queue and were told "sorry we've reached the limit"?

In fact, taking it to its logical conclusion, why bother adhere to the Trinity Group of schools agreement on having a common offer date (9th Feb this year)? Why not simply send out the offers a day or so after the interviews have been conducted and steal a march on everyone else?

As I said earlier, it's their conduct that is more contemptuous than the policy itself

When so many other independent schools can manage their list without this ticking time bomb approach why can’t CLSG do ??
Poor taste !!

From the exploding offer system alone this is a school I will never consider for my daughter - I think it’s fairly arrogant of them. The London day school scene is fantastically competitive and it is difficult to get a clear picture until you have that/those offers actually in your hand. Difficult to emotionally invest in a school if you’re not absolutely certain you’ll be offered a place, given that these schools turn down more students than they accept. However bright the child there is always room for an off-day - this, surely is why children sit for more than one school in the first place! Why wouldn’t you be making a decision based on facts ie. genuine offers, rather than fantasy?

The problem with viewing all very seriously prior to offers is that you/your child may get their heart set on a school and then never receive an offer. This is especially hard on these young children.

The parent is the adult, the parent is paying the fees. Does a child really understand the implication?
I’d be making an adult decision.

Completely agree helpmum!