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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Grammar school areas.... thoughts?

129 replies

Fleetfox56 · 03/02/2018 19:50

Those who live in grammar school towns/cities, are you glad you do? We do and our DC will sit 11 plus a year in Sept if she chooses to do so. However, I grew up in this town and went to this school. All girls, quite pressurised and thinks a lot of itself. I’m not sure it’s what I want for her....

We do have crazy dreams of moving away but whether we can realise them or not still remains to be seen.

Just wondered what other people’s thoughts were on grammar system, single-sex secondary schools etc...

OP posts:
Panicmode1 · 08/02/2018 12:46

We are in Kent. I have four children - so far two have taken and passed the test, and for my DS, who is at a SS grammar, it has been the making of him. He was bullied mercilessly at primary for being clever, was mockingly called "The Professor" and hated every single second. Now he's able to be himself, with other boys who are geeky like him, and where it's cool to be clever and the school encourage excellence and academic success but also strongly encourages music, sport, drama etc.

My daughter could have gone to a superselective but didn't want to go on a bus for ages every day - so she is at the girl's grammar and is doing fine, but I have my reservations about it. I think it has been resting on its laurels for some time, and she would probably have been equally well served by the two brilliant local 'comprehensives', but she wanted to go to an all girls' school as she has ''too many brothers'' to want to spend even more time with boys Grin.

I think it's a very divisive system and far too many parents have a ''grammar or bust'' attitude, without much thought to their individual children. Some of the children at my children's schools come for MILES and take hours on the bus or trains, and I think that it is utterly ridiculous and doesn't help to build a school community - friends are scattered to the four winds at the weekends so socialising can be difficult.

I think if you can close your ears to all of the playground whispers and rumours and do the best for your individual child (and be honest with yourself about their ability and personality) then they can be fantastic. I think for a heavily tutored child who just scrapes in and then flounders at the bottom, and has a parent who can proudly boast that their DC is at a grammar, it must be a miserable experience.......

Ohforfoxsakereturns · 08/02/2018 12:52

Panicmode - will all yours sit the exam? I ask because I too have four. All mine sat it (and got in) but I became less comfortable with the whole selection process as time went on. I question whether I should have started down this road in the first place.

Panicmode1 · 08/02/2018 13:22

Yes - my third child is doing so in September. He wants to follow his brother to the SS and is capable of doing so. He's also a MASSIVE rugby fan and they don't do it at the other grammar/comprehensive. I hate the pressure that they are under, and I think it gets worse as each child sits it...but we were both privately educated and couldn't put four through, and I know I will probably get vilified on here for saying this, but for us, and for our children, this was/is the next best option.

Ohforfoxsakereturns · 08/02/2018 13:33

I felt I had to do for them all what I did for the eldest. I have always wanted them to go to the same school. So I went down the selective route. WTF?!! It isn’t a bundle of laughs is it? (But FWIW it’s possible and my youngest joins her siblings in September. I cannot tell you the relief!) very best of luck!

Panicmode1 · 08/02/2018 13:42

Exactly that. I feel we have to give them all a shot at grammar, but I wouldn't put them (or us!) through it if I didn't think they could do it. Congratulations to be out the other side.... Still got another 3 years til my last one takes it!!

GoldenMalicious · 08/02/2018 14:33

We live in a grammar area. We've had two DSs go through the 11+, with very different experiences.

DS1 is very academic, and breezed through the 11+ with flying colours. DS2 missed out on the 11+ by a few marks, so we have found ourselves in new territory. What I have realised is that for a child like DS1, the grammar system seems fine. But when you have a child like DS2, who just misses the 11+, the system feels far less fair and reasonable.

It feels like the non-grammar options aren't particularly strong, and so we have opted to put DS2 forward for independent schools - we're waiting anxiously to hear from them. If we were in an area with a decent comp, then I suspect that we would be far happier with that option for DS2. But even within a selective school, DS1 finds it frustrating that the pace of learning is often constrained by those who are less able. I wonder if he would have been even more frustrated in a comp - who knows.

Ultimately, I strongly suspect that grammars are damaging, as they create unnecessary tension and division, and all at the tender age of 11. My ideal would be a comp which could truly differentiate to accommodate the whole range of abilities. But I am not convinced that this Utopia exists in more than a handful of schools.

(I would have to concede that had I been asked for my view on grammars a few years ago, when I only had DS1's experience to go on, I would have been a strong advocate for them. It's only after going through the same process with DS2 that I've seen more clearly the flaws in the system.)

BubblesBuddy · 08/02/2018 16:18

Of course there are flaws for the majority of children who don’t get to the grammar schools. I live in Bucks and some of our secondary moderns are excellent and sought after. Some are not. Therefore parents who are canny live in the catchment for the best secondary moderns. Some of them have over 30% high achievers and produce plenty of pupils who go to university. It’s not the awful position some paint it to be.

I know several parents who didn’t appeal the 11 plus result (118/119 would get in on appeal most of the time) because they were happy with the local secondary modern and thought their child would be overwhelmed at a grammar. Clearly some parents don’t panic. Others do and it’s awful for their children. The parents are awful. Tutors know some children will never pass but they take the money anyway. I know one child who had been tutored for 2 years before the exam and got 103. 121 is automatic selection. Child dejected and felt a failure. Mum spent money she hadn’t got. However she did brilliantly at her secondary school and it all came right in the end. As it does for many. She could have avoided all of that by just accepting the local secondary in the first place. It’s a good school and many pupils do better there than in many comp schools.

I didn’t put DD2 into the exam. We withdrew. We were lucky in that she could go Private. She also went to a private prep where there was no pressure for the 11 plus at all.

whiteroseredrose · 08/02/2018 20:35

We're in South Trafford and have a mix of single sex and co-ed grammars and also some great non-grammars so I do feel lucky. Both DS and DD have enjoyed their single sex grammars as they were the right schools for them. Friends have DC and grammars and not and again have been happy. It all worked out well for us.

LizardMonitor · 08/02/2018 20:42

“I wonder if he would have been even more frustrated in a comp - who knows.”

The top sets in true comps are geared towards the ones who will get 8s and 9s at GCSE, and they work accordingly. Dc1’s Maths set did Maths and Further Maths in the same curriculum time as other sets just did Maths, and most got 8 and A, with many getting 9 and A*.

The 4 local comps I know of are like this. Not all, in our LA, it’s true. But I don’t think it’s that rare.

Comps aren’t like they were in ‘our day ‘.

BubblesBuddy · 08/02/2018 20:55

Looking at the results at some comprehensives, it’s difficult to make a case for many of the top set being the same as a grammar school lower set. There are few clever children to work with in some schools. These are the hundreds of failing schools identified by Ofsted.

Frankley · 08/02/2018 21:58

I found, as a parent, that Year 6 in a Grammar school area was a nightmare! Children feeling 'failures' because friends had passed the exam and they hadn't. Parents attitudes to each other not good. Secondary Moderns (why do people call them Comps?) not all good. Children from some have done very well and gone on to University--but these children are still looked on differently by the parents of the children who passed the 11plus and had the Grammar experience.
A survey of what people are doing 10years after leaving various types of schools would interest me.
I think an area with a good Comprehensive system is best, a child's education should not be based on one exam so young.

RueDeWakening · 09/02/2018 11:03

I'm in the same area as Toomanycats, my DD is one of the 800 girls who have passed the 11+, and may or may not get one of the 400-odd places available. We were very low key about the 11+ process, worked with DD at home and booked a place on the familiarisation tests so she wasn't going in cold to an exam environment.

I am glad we live in a grammar area, but there are so few local children at any of the grammars, they have little impact on the comprehensives we have. I would be happy if DD got a place at one of the grammars, but equally happy if she got a place at the two comprehensives we've listed 3rd and 4th on our CAF.

We will be going through the same process with DS1 in a couple of years, he has ASC and would get on best in a smaller school with strong discipline and boundaries - where we are, that means one of the boys grammars. But it remains to be seen whether he can pass the test.

BubblesBuddy · 09/02/2018 15:01

Frankly: your post is also saying it’s problems with the parents. Where I live I have been pleased to see parents don’t treat their children differently according to which school they go to. There are differences in sport and school trips but not markedly so. The parents support the children and the schools.

I think that not all grammar school pupils get high flying jobs by any means. I know loads who could have done what they are doing had they gone to the local secondary modern. Many had tuition but were not anything special and university choices were not RG. They have jobs but not stellar ones. Therefore I think there is a big crossover between the top of the secondary modern and the bottom of the grammar in terms of university and subsequent employment.

OutyMcOutface · 09/02/2018 15:15

I didn't go to a grammar but small girls very academic school so I would imagine it was quite similar. I loved it. I found the all female environment liberating. We were all 100% with our bodies and discussing our bodies. No make up, people pulling up stockings whenever they needed it. No self concious hiding under baggy jumpers or rolling up of skirts. You know that you are in a good place when someone walks into a communal area and yells "Does anyone have a tamponI can borrow?!". I know it sounds a bit wild but it was purely because we all felt a certain kind of camaraderie that you don't get in the real world. The high pressure academic focus also worked for me. I was already academic and without the extra pressure I would have just coasted along without pushing myself if realising my full potential. I can understand why some people might hate it but for some people it's really great. I think that it all depends on what your daughter is like.

ReelingLush18 · 09/02/2018 15:17

I think that not all grammar school pupils get high flying jobs by any means. I don't think being bright necessarily makes one high-flying though. It's often about personality too.

Taffeta · 09/02/2018 15:41

I think that not all grammar school pupils get high flying jobs by any means. I don't think being bright necessarily makes one high-flying though. It's often about personality too

Agree totally. The most academic people I know are not the most “high flying”.

ChocolateWombat · 09/02/2018 17:00

I think fear is a huge driving factor in the Grammar system and the way it has become so tutor led. People fear comprehensives and they fear their children being in classes with disruptive children, because much of the teaching is by mixed ability.

It is true that a top set in a Comp can be as good and as high achieving as a Grammar,mbut there is fear that in a large Comp, your child might not make it into the top set and be left lower down with the disruptive element. And there is fear that there isn't much setting going on anyway - it is increasingly out of fashion and even if schools set for maths, many don't set for much else if anything, so this fear of a disrupted learning experience, or slowed pace is very real for lots of parents, even in good Comp areas.

There's also fear about things like a lack of triple science for all or limited languages, or music provision - things the middle classes love and would hate to think some children are getting elsewhere, but their children aren't getting.

And there's fear that the local Comp isn't even one of the very good ones that people always mention, but just rather mediocre.

On balance, I believe that the Grammar system is damaging. It is divisive, it creates stores for young children and their families and the testing methods are not foolproof. Most importantly it fails well over half of children and assigns them to schools without the respect of many and without the full ability range. This is all true. However, when Comps are so variable and even the good ones don't seem to separate the able or well behaved from others, many parents are never going to be happy with a Comp and will seek a Grammar - this is the reality. People have a fear about Comps, not just in terms of end results, but in terms of the learning experience too. It may well be that being educated amongst a broad range of ability and affluence can lead to brilliant results, but I think the key thing for many people is that they worry about their children's education being negatively affected by poor behaviour....and yes, of course poor behaviour isn't confined to lower ability children or those from deprived areas, but in many parents minds, there is a strong correlation. In the end, people choose not what is best for society overall, but what they think will be best for their individual child, and most of the middle class would in all honesty prefer their children to be educated with well behaved and clever children, if at all possible. That others may lose out from their choice, is simply not their key concern. Comps just seem a bit......risky for many people and where people do have choices (and money and sharp elbows can get you some choices about where to live and which schools are available to you) then they will.

If Grammars didn't exist, as they don't in many areas, people would go to Comps. Here we often hear from parents whose children did well at the leafy Comps in the top sets. I would like to hear from parents whose children went to Comps and were in the lower sets, or who went to the less successful Comps and hear about their experiences and if they were pleased. It would be nice to think that there are parents in all schools who are pleased..but we never seem to hear from those if they are out there, and this further fuels the urgency some parents feel to seek selective education.

mountford100 · 09/02/2018 20:13

On these threads it is very difficult to propose something different from a comprehensive school system ! If you do posters will jump down the throat of anyone willing to suggest different.

The problem with grammar schools whether they are super selective admitting the top 5% or regular grammar schools 25-30% is that 11+ results would differ if taken tomorrow.

The selecting of a percentage of pupils would have been different on any given day.

This is because any one in the highest 10% of the ability range might have passed a super selective top 5% exam tomorrow but not today.
Conversely a child in the highest 40% of the ability might pass a regular 11+ exam.

It is therefore very difficult to accurately attain which of those students are in the top 25/5% respectively of academic ability.

Here is something controversial, create more grammar schools but increase the scope of the ability range to 40%. !

BubblesBuddy · 10/02/2018 01:35

The Bucks system reviews the near misses and looks at Head Teacher recommendations. It’s not solely on the test. You can also appeal and children can get in who are several marks below the 121 needed.

The percentage passing varies within the county and, surprise, surprise, more pass in the leafy South of the County. It tends to go along the lines of whose parents have the higher qualifications and who can afford tutoring. It varies between 16% and 33%. However the grammar schools in Aylesbury Vale take far more out of county pupils. They could admit far more pupils from Bucks if they lowered the pass mark but it would provoke a strong reaction from the secondary moderns who would be left with all the problems and few higher achievers. This may also cause recruitment problems for staff, no 6th forms and a greater sense of failure amongst pupils. Many sensible people don’t see some secondary moderns as failure at all.

40% wouldn’t make much difference in the Chilterns area where the pass percentage is high, but if it was raised to 40% from 16% in the Vale of Aylesbury, the grammar schools would take the best children from (mostly) two high achieving secondary moderns and leave them with real problems. It could also be argued that these two secondary moderns do well because they have a high number of high achieving children who thrive at the slightly slower pace.

As usual, trying to give more chances of a grammar school place for more children would completely change the character of the schools they would have gone to. At the moment, lots of parents want these schools. They are better than many comps. They would presumably not be viable either with fewer children in them.

Taffeta · 10/02/2018 08:07

Wherever you have the cutoff there’s a problem

There was an interesting piece done last year on this:

11plustruth.org.uk/index.php/2016/09/18/test-score-doesnt-matter-kent-doesnt-even-trust-eleven-plus-test/

LizardMonitor · 10/02/2018 09:32

Taffeta, that is a very interesting link.

Quite shocking that children who can get top scores on two of the papers can be excluded because of a weakness in another. So a maths genius of the future, one of those really talented mathematicians, loses out to an all round bright-enough plodder. (Because let’s nit kid ourselves that grammar school entry is a mark of especially intelligence: that graph shows that the majority of the intake isn’t all that far off ‘average’.

I really believe in giving each child the education that they need, the right pace that gives them challenge and support. But this looks like Emporers New Clothes and we would do best to campaign for good comps everywhere, not more grammars.

LizardMonitor · 10/02/2018 09:33

Blush at typos.

anothernetter · 10/02/2018 09:34

I disagree with grammar schools and would not live in an area where there is one.

Strumpetpumpet · 10/02/2018 11:10

I’m in Trafford & if I had my time again I would have moved to an area with a comprehensive system. The amount of stress and upset caused by the grammar system, not to mention the cost if you choose to go for tuition, is ridiculous.

I have one child at grammar and one at secondary modern. If anything, I would say my dd (at sec mod) is more academic than ds (at grammar). We didn’t use tutors and it was pot luck on the day of the entrance exam. Ds scraped in to grammar (but is now in top set in yr 9 - go figure); DD just missed by a few marks. I think that shows how flawed the system is.

That said, they are both at outstanding schools, doing well and happy. I’m sure they’d have both been just as happy (and done just as well) in a comprehensive system.

I also work for a MAT which includes both grammar and non grammar schools. My experience at work has only served to confirm my view that the grammar system is outdated and unfair.

ladybirdpoppy · 11/02/2018 14:11

I also live in Trafford and gone through the grammar entrance test experience.. Never want to repeat again! My d's was 1 point from the pass mark. Since year 2 all his teachers said he was suited to grammar , in top sets a year ahead of himself but on the day the pressure got to him, I could see it in his face when we arrived at the school and you realise there are 1000+ kids there. He did it with no tutor, scored average 90% in Mock tests at home. There was only 2 kids in his class who passed one of those had 2 tutors and the other has parents who are teachers... Now they are revising for sats my ds has consistently scored higher than the two that passed, one of them has moved from top set to middle set for maths as stopped having a tutor... These kids will struggle for sure.....

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