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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Grammar school areas.... thoughts?

129 replies

Fleetfox56 · 03/02/2018 19:50

Those who live in grammar school towns/cities, are you glad you do? We do and our DC will sit 11 plus a year in Sept if she chooses to do so. However, I grew up in this town and went to this school. All girls, quite pressurised and thinks a lot of itself. I’m not sure it’s what I want for her....

We do have crazy dreams of moving away but whether we can realise them or not still remains to be seen.

Just wondered what other people’s thoughts were on grammar system, single-sex secondary schools etc...

OP posts:
Matildatoldsuchdreadfullies · 04/02/2018 11:30

We live in Kent. For several years I went into ostrich mode, hoping that Kent would move away from selection, but unfortunately it didn't happen.

My dc all passed the Kent Test (the last one took it this year). And I still resent the fact that they were put under that amount of pressure at 10 years old (pressure from themselves, friends... the whole system. We did our damndest to play down the 11+). If we could have moved to a comprehensive area, we would have.

BeyondThePage · 04/02/2018 11:36

Most important thing for us was to go see the schools. You can't get a feel for the environment unless you do.

Gileswithachainsaw · 04/02/2018 11:36

I believe you reeling it wasn't me who questioned it Smile

I lucked out in secondary for the most part as was in top sets.

Those subjects that weren't set like art and humanities and DT home economics etc the amount of fucking about that went on was pretty bad.

Can well imagine that those in lower sets with the ones who messed about didn't do as well as they could have done.

Certainly even in the likes of German class there was a degree of waiting around for People to shut up before the teacher could answer a question.

Gaining gcses doesn't mean you couldn't have done better in indifferent environment

Fleetfox56 · 04/02/2018 11:39

Beyondthepage - yes I’m hoping to look at the next open day opportunity which I think it’s June time. I know this may be more for current yr 5 but if we are looking at a potential move out of county we need to be informed well ahead of time...

OP posts:
Toomanycats99 · 04/02/2018 11:50

We are in a London borough with 2 girls grammars. My dd sat 11+ passed stage one but failed maths stage 2. I was and still am a bit gutted as I had always assumed she was naturally bright enough and she loves learning. I hunk I had slightly underestimated the preparation some put in. In the last couple of months before she exam she got very negative about herself viewing herself as stupid as she didn't 'get' stuff immediately. It helps that fingers crossed the comprehensive she will get into seems very good. I think long term it will be better for her self esteem being too set comp than lower ability grammar. She would just be comparing herself to those others in the grammar not everyone her age. I also wonder whether the non grammar will be open to more post 16/18 alternatives eg college / apprenticeship. I went to a grammar and left nearly 30 years ago. There was a handful in of us that left at 16 and I felt we were viewed negatively. I felt I fitted in much better at college however the grammar gave me a strong work ethic which did me good in the very relaxed college atmosphere. I don't think I will go through the process with dd2. I just don't think her character is suited to a grammar. Ur I have a few years yet.

Toomanycats99 · 04/02/2018 11:53

I do hear negative things about the grammars - high self harm rates, girls being 'asked' to leave around year 9.

It's very hard to know how true these are and how much is rumour.

blueskypink · 04/02/2018 12:03

Toomanycats - I know quite a few people who failed the 11+ and went on to have stellar academic careers. DS's gf for example da iled but got excellent GCSEs and A levels, a first and is now doing a PhD.

Toomanycats99 · 04/02/2018 12:14

@blueskypink

She loves learning so I am sure that she will probably do just as well there as a selective. By passing stage 1 we qualified to apply for the partially selective school although that's about 3 on our list. I think about 20% of her class got through but that's no guarantee of a placers they pass more than they have places for.

Fleetfox56 · 04/02/2018 13:07

Can anyone explain what a super selective is as opposed to selective?

OP posts:
Matildatoldsuchdreadfullies · 04/02/2018 13:12

Selective = children sit an exam and are deemed suitable/not suitable for a grammar education. They can then get a place at a grammar school and the actual mark they get isn't important.

Super-selective = places are awarded according to your mark - if there are 120 places, these will go to the top 120 children.

cantkeepawayforever · 04/02/2018 13:37

Fleetfox,

Some superselectives also have no catchment - meaning that they will take the top 120 (or however many) children, wherever they may live. other grammars may either only take from catchment or may have higher 'out of area' pass marks than the 'in area' pass marks.

The most superselective schools will be those in affluent / highly MC areas, far away from other grammars (ie in a partically-selective area or next to a non-selective county) and with no geographical limits.

Toomanycats99 · 04/02/2018 13:55

Yes. The two near us take roughly top 50% of scores regardless of where you live. The remainder are descending score in catchment. So in reality in catchment score will be lower than out of. They pass between them 700-800 people for 400ish places.

Fleetfox56 · 04/02/2018 14:00

Wow... I see... thanks for explaining x

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 04/02/2018 14:03

Selective education is socially and psychologically damaging for all concerned. Just hideous.

soimpressed · 04/02/2018 14:18

I live in a grammar school area. The grammar schools are all rated outstanding and my nearest non-grammar schools (how can they be called comps?) are both rated inadequate. I went to look round our catchment school with an open mind, despite it being inadequate, but I hated it. I don't agree with the system but felt I had no choice but to send academic DC to the grammar school. The tutoring that goes on in the primary schools here is crazy. The system is completely unfair.

Toomanycats99 · 04/02/2018 14:28

@Fleetfox56

There is an 11+ forum group and there are people on there asking about commutes to schools that are well over an hour away. I think that's too much to travel to school at that age.

EvilTwins · 04/02/2018 15:32

I am in a county with one superselective mixed grammar and a few single sex. We also have decent comps nearby. I’m not a fan of selective education on principle but our DTDs wanted to give the 11+ a try so we let them (no tutoring though - some of their friends had been tutored since yr 4 - I did not want it to become the defining feature of KS2.) DTD1 got onto the list for the superselective but wasn’t close enough to the magic 150 to be in with a definite chance of a place so we didn’t tell her as she is a worrier and it would have eaten away at her between getting the results and allocations day. Both now go to one of the single sex grammars and are flourishing, I don’t think that DTD1 would have enjoyed the superselective had she got in - from what I can gather, it’s very pressured.

blueskypink · 04/02/2018 15:37

I think that's too much to travel to school at that age.

Totally agree. Especially when you factor in heavy bags, sports gear, instruments, travel disruption. And it makes socialising with school friends outside of school really difficult.

Bobbybobbins · 04/02/2018 15:52

I went to a grammar school myself and now teach in a comprehensive (successful inner city with v broad ethnic, social and ability mix) and we live in a comp area.

I love my current chool and all it stands for - helping every child succeed of whatever background or ability and that is my preference.

The school I went to was also successful but mono-background if that makes sense. The teaching was a lot worse imo as we were like sponges soaking up info, but whole lessons spent listening to teacher/copying off the board.

Roomba · 04/02/2018 16:01

DS1 is at a superselective boy's grammar - one of only 4 in the whole county IIRC. I'm very happy indeed that he is there at the moment, but that's entirely because he is loving school now and seems to fit in well there. They've certainly improved his academic performance enormously in comparison to his primary school.

I don't agree with the concept of grammar schools so was hesitant when DS insisted he wanted to sit the 11+. The other locals schools would either reject him as we're not churchgoers or have terrible reputations though. A lot of local kids as bussed out to other schools in the next county as a result. So yes, I'm glad he's getting the best educational opportunity available here. But I'm angry that everyone doesn't have the same opportunities.

I went to a comprehensive in South Yorkshire where there were no grammar schools. It was an appalling school tbh, woeful education, massive discipline issues - two pupils murdered another pupil while I was there as just one example and there were constant exclusions, fights and truancy issues. Not what I'd want for my kids, but I don't think the grammar/modern system is the answer either.

Roomba · 04/02/2018 16:43

DS's grammar has 150 places (was 120 until last year) and they take the top applicants from within the catchment area. A percentage of places are reserved for out of catchment applicants, but the score required to obtain a place is higher if out of catchment. There is also a separate process for boarders to apply - it's one of the few remaining state boarding schools so the pass mark required is high for this also as there's only 200 boarding places. You can't apply for both boarding and normal day places, you must pick one or the other. So there's a few thing which affect whether you get in or not depending in your circumstances as well as the actual 11+ result achieved.

ChocolateWombat · 04/02/2018 17:25

Interesting that lots of people say they live in Grammar areas, but their kids are at Comps. If there are Grammars, there cannot be any true Comps because to be a Comp, you have to have access to the full range of ability, without any ability groups being creamed off....not possible when a Grammar is around. When there are few Grammars, which are superselective, the impact on a county, is often much smaller, because few from most areas go to Grammar, so there is less creaming off, but there is still some, so strictly speaking, the other schools are not true Comps.

It's great to hear from people whose kids go to the non selective school in a grammar area and are pleased with it. Too often though, the non selective options are not great, and bearing in mind that well over half of kids have to go to those, it leaves a system that isn't good.

The problem is that the school system generally isn't good or fair. If you are poor in a Comp area, the chances are that your catchment Comp isn't great and you are stuck. If you are clever and poor, at least in a Grammar area, you have a chance of a good school, if the non selective options are not good. And if you're not bright enough, but affluent in a Grammar area, you may find yourself stuck in a not so good school, whereas if you were in a Comp area, you'd probably live near a good Comp, so get into it. The problem is that the Comp system selects by location and affluence and the Grammar system by ability. A working and fair system would give a good education to everyone regardless of ability or affluence. Of course, the grammar system is made more unfair because of the huge correlation between affluence and having the means to get into grammar. Yes, some very bright children from deprived backgrounds do get in, but we know those figures are shockingly low. It tends to be the affluent families whose children get the preparation to give them the edge that get the places.

It's not fair. So back to the Q and to the OP, I would say, that you need to decide what will suit your children best. If they are bright and very likely to pass the 11+ then a Grammar area can be great. However, if they are borderline or weaker, and you have the means to move to a Comp area and live within catchment of a good school, it is a safer bet - in fact a great Comp tends to do as well for its bright kids as a Grammar anyway, so overall this seems the safest and best option. Many middle class parents love the idea of Grammars though and can't quite believe that any Comp can deliver similar results for bright children, and love the kudos of Grammar, so stick with it. Given the crap system which doesn't work for the less academic or for the more deprived, think you need to weigh up the odds for your particular children and find the best for them.....even more tricky if you have more than 1 and they are quite different!

Children in Comp areas definitely have a less stressful Year 5 and probably 6.

SwanVests · 04/02/2018 17:38

What do you call a comp that is in a grammar school area then? Our local non- selective school has the word comprehensive in its name.

BertrandRussell · 04/02/2018 17:44

They are called high schools in Kent, which is a wholly selective lea. But I call them secondary moderns because that is, largely, what they are. In authorities with only superselectives, the other schools are nearly comprehensives.

RebeccaWrongDaily · 04/02/2018 17:44

i live in a grammar area
i hate it
we are only in catchment for the 'worst' school in the borough.
Thankfully my children are likely to pass entrance exam board and be able to go to grammars. If not hell will freeze over before they set foot into our local school- we'll have to pay or move house. And I say this as someone who is largely opposed to private schooling.

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