Best place to live in Kent for Grammar school

[vik2017]

Hi,
This is my first question on this board....
and I wanted to know which is the best place to live in Kent and falls into Grammar catchment area and also if my son dont get to the Grammar at least will go to a very good comprehensive school.
Any suggestion will be appreciated even suggest to move to another place considering we both work in London.

Many thanks in advance...
Viki

Thanks MumTrying,
#Just trying to reason this through, not being local.

So if Dartford school appeals are notoriously hard to win - and they contain some 'out of catchment' very high scorers - is this a mechanism by which some Kent grammars have higher ability cohorts than others? Schools in, say, Dover are less likely to have out of catchment very high scorers and may therefore admit more pupils who didn't pass the test in the first instance, through successful appeals?

As for talking about ability of cohort, since SATS tests are not intelligence tests, it is a somewhat odd way of referring to it as it does give the impression of innate talent. How about, lower and higher preparedness for secondary school?

So does an appeal ever admit someone who failed the test? Or is it just about placing at a different grammar from the one initially allocated?

Could you give me some examples of the schools that are further away / trickier transport that you were thinking of? it would just be really good to look at some actual data.

Compare say Maidstone schools with Dartford/Wilmington.

Appeals can absolutely be won by children who haven’t passed. You have to prove the non qualification part as well as an oversubscription part of the school is oversubscribed.

And guess what - surprise surprise, poor kids in poor areas tend to be less well prepped and prepared for national tests.

Sorry, Round. 'High / medium/low prior attainment' is the term gov.uk uses in its data, but it is a lot of typing every time!

Taffeta thanks :-)

One point to note about the empty places, that figure I posted was for allocations day, it may be different by the start of term in September.

I also suspect that an increasing number of empty Grammar places are comming from 11 plus tourists. They sit the exam in multiple areas, place any on the CAF they think they have a chance of getting in to and then decline the place, once allocated, because they realise there isn't any realistic way of getting their DC to the school each day.

berliozwooler

yes I bet they are really bitter now their DC is in a Grammar 6th form, NOT

So it is absolutely reasonable to say, as I did way back, that some grammars (nationwide) are extremely selective, some are very selective, and some are somewhat less selective?

An example of the first might be e.g. Tiffin or Pate's, an example of the middle might be a grammar in a partially-selective county that maybe admits the top 10-15%, and an example of a less selective grammar might be a coastal, hard to get to grammar in a poorer part of Kent?

The response I got at that point made me think that every single grammar in Kent was equally selective, which appears not to be so - there are superselectives, 'normally selective but very very popular', and 'need to pass the Kent test to get a first round place but may have more places filled from those who failed in the first round through appeal'? Or have I misunderstood?

OK, Lets give Dover Boys Grammar a fair comparison.
Dover is a Commercial port with significant levels of deprivation.
As is Southampton
Pop into your DFE comparison list

• Dover Boys Grammar
• Regents Park Community College
• Upper Shirley High
• Bitterne Park

the latter three are all mixed comps that between them cover the poorest parts of the city What is the point of the 11+ ?

I'm not sure that would apply to many, though I guess in Kent it's feasible due to "nearby" 11+ areas. Some people may decide between a grammar school offer and an independent school offer after the first round of allocations.

cantkeepawayforever I would imagine, if a Grammar has vacancies they will be more willing to consider borderline cases.

It is harder to win an appeal for any school that is full.

So it is absolutely reasonable to say, as I did way back, that some grammars (nationwide) are extremely selective, some are very selective, and some are somewhat less selective?

I think so, which is why I'm surprised that OP is happy to consider any Grammar but just want a top indie/private.

Ta1kinPeece - be fair, the best grammars do get slightly better grades for children who were already heading for Oxbridge and City Law Firms, anyway. And they save money on private school fees for parents who would never consider a comprehensive.

It's because OP would be paying for Independent. When people are paying they often feel they should receive the best. When something is free, somehow it doesn't seem quite so important.

The thing is though, that top indies are very selective. They are often very expensive too, but crucially most people won't get in....so if you won't make it into a very competitive grammar, you probably won't be looking at a top tier indie either.

This thread shows me how lots of people have all kinds of preconceptions about schools and the school their child must attend, without having visited such schools or knowing much about them.

Common preconceptions;

• Grammar must always be better regardless of anything else
• All Grammars are the same or all Comos are the same
• Comps exist alongside Grammars
• indies are always high performing
• Comps always have lots of disruption or perform worse than Grammars for all kids
• Prep school always gives a btter chance of getting into Grammar than state, even if tutors are used

You cannot simply pick an area to move to which you haven't visited a number of times, based on an ofsted report of a school, league table or because the county has grammars. Loads of things have to drive where you live and then where you educate your child, including;

• where you actually like
• where the this of the area fits you
• where you can get to work
• where you can afford to live
• where there are schools for all of your family
• where there are schools which will meet the needs of each individual child well
• where there are schools you like and will meet the admissions criteria of

OP really wants to avoid her child mixing with the disruptive element. That can never be guaranteed even in an independent or grammar.

It is less likely in a grammar or independent.
However there is no guarantee of getting into a grammar and for an independent you need both the money and ability to pass the test.
If you live in a fully grammar area you have to accept the risk of failing the exam and being left with the non-selective option which cannot be a Comp, because a % have been creamed off.
If you move to a Comp area and live very very close you are likely to get in. However Comps can decline or rise in quality, so again there is no guarantee.

You can mitigate against uncertainty but you can never remove it.

So it is absolutely reasonable to say, as I did way back, that some grammars (nationwide) are extremely selective, some are very selective, and some are somewhat less selective?

Selective is the wrong word. Absolutely the super selectives are more selective, but after that the normal grammars are just more or less subscribed.

Taffeta,

At a countrywide level, I would say that 'selective' is absolutely the right word - superselectives, those who are 'more selective than Kent but not superselective', and those who admit 25%+ of the pupil population, as is the case in Kent.

I can see that at a Kent level only, the difference between grammars that are not superselective does depend, initially, on levels of over-subscription, but as a result they are less or more selective - some only admit those who have passed the Kent test (and maybe some very high scorers from outside catchment); others are less selective in their final admission because they admit those who have not passed by way of appeals. The difference is more marginal than the difference between 'non superselectives from other counties' and 'Kent grammars', though, I agree.

So if Dartford school appeals are notoriously hard to win - and they contain some 'out of catchment' very high scorers - is this a mechanism by which some Kent grammars have higher ability cohorts than others? Schools in, say, Dover are less likely to have out of catchment very high scorers and may therefore admit more pupils who didn't pass the test in the first instance, through successful appeals?

Dartford Boys is semi super selective - 90 places for out of area (needing very high score) and 90 places for in area. It has been the case for many years that very very few local children that might’ve missed one paper by one mark will not get in on appeal, no matter how good their non qualification case, as the panel awards the very few places to boys from out of area with very high scores.

So if you are a boy in Dartford that misses one paper by one point you have a much much worse chance of getting in on appeal than if you lived in say, Maidstone.

^"Just to add another anecdote to the mix, I have an extremely bright untutored child who failed the 11+. Make of that what you will

That your guilt has led you to your whinging about the Kent Test on these boards for the last two years?"

Oh, I've been whinging about the Kent Test for much longer than that! Since before my first child took it, even. You really are a Johnny-Come-Lately, aren't you?

I do feel the need to point out that Dover Grammar School for Girls is highly sought after and has an excellent rating from the Good School Guide www.schoolguide.co.uk/schools/dover-grammar-school-for-girls-dover
I will admit the boys school is not so great.

Roundabout
My point is that if a grammar is getting the same results as a comp in a comparable area
how crap is the secondary modern ?

And that is the point about the OP wanting to move to Kent ....
there are parts of the county where the Grammar is equivalent to a mediocre comp
and the other school is much worse

Sorry this is the Good Schools Guide link dggs.kent.sch.uk/download/i/mark_dl/u/4008906150/4616967791/Good%20Schools%20Guide.pdf

Yes Bertrand you as dedicated to your cause as this fellow is to his !

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clive_Stafford_Smith

You make out at times that failing the 11+ is like being given the death sentence by the state of Texas !

Or alternatively being sent to the Modern , is like being 'Angola' bound for the rest of your life in Louisana.....

username
The girls school is better

• I've just compared it with St Annes in Southampton

(technically catholic but not really and no academic selection)

Again I'd say, if that is what the best third of kids are doing, the education of the rest is a scandal

Very unfair on Dover Girls Grammar ! One of only a few state schools that teaches Latin. It gets good results for its cohort which equate to the top 35% of the ability range.

The Dover/Shepway tests are less selective than the Kent test. So both the Folkestone and Dover areas cohorts are probably slighter down on higher ability numbers then the Kent average.