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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Best place to live in Kent for Grammar school

750 replies

vik2017 · 30/10/2017 15:31

Hi,
This is my first question on this board....Smile
and I wanted to know which is the best place to live in Kent and falls into Grammar catchment area and also if my son dont get to the Grammar at least will go to a very good comprehensive school.
Any suggestion will be appreciated even suggest to move to another place considering we both work in London.

Many thanks in advance...
Viki

OP posts:
Purpl · 03/11/2017 07:46

Hi grammars can be over rated and in Kent in particular kids are over tutored to get there & then struggle & hate it. I hane kids in como and the teachers are passionate and the top set consistently out perform the bottom of grammar. I suggest you look at grave sham catchment so schools such as Meopham wrotham st Georges all very very good and Meopham instead rise Vigo Hartley borough green nice places to live plus the train makes the Medway grammars very easy to get too. Choose a school your son be happy in as its not all about results good luck

Purpl · 03/11/2017 07:47

Sorry lots of typos rushing 😱

vik2017 · 03/11/2017 10:21

Thanks everyone Smile!!
After reading all these useful comments I believe that choice for DC school depends on personal experience and varies person to person, no two people have same experience. Some suggested Kent but some just said no as it puts too much pressure on DC and even some are totally reluctant to grammar culture.
I have narrowed down my options as I can never get a precise answer because my circumstances may not be same as others hence, I may choose otherwise. I am thinking better leave the Kent aside and move to Bexley and arrange a nice tuition for DS and get him ready for grammar without putting too much pressure (considering his capacity) if he gets in, that is best!! else will send him to independent because after reading all that and checking on internet about comps, I better spend money than regret later.
Note: Please do not take me wrong, I am not being judgemental, I am just expressing my personal views and nothing to do with anyone who is happy or willing to send their DC to comp and have no intention to offend anyone.

OP posts:
mountford100 · 03/11/2017 10:22

VR can be bloody difficult to do especially with only 30 seconds per answer !

I understand there is a technique , however what happens after the forward 6 letters and back 3 letters doesn't work.

You are then left with needing people like the ' Bletchley' Park boffins to decipher the code !

MumTryingHerBest · 03/11/2017 10:37

vik2017 I am not being judgemental

Have you actually been to see any of the schools you have your eye on for your >4 year old DC. I heavily suggest you actually go to see what it is your are looking to buy into (and rejecting in the case of comps.). Looking at comments about schools on the internet, posted by a bunch of strangers, is not a good way to map out your DCs academic future.

StealthNinjaMum · 03/11/2017 10:41

OP you could probably get a tutor now to assess your child's suitability for 11+. I know that lots can change in two years but I have heard of tutors that have age specific tests so you could test him on reasoning for an 8 year old. If he does really badly it could give you an indication that you need to help with vocabulary or maths or you could eliminate 11+ as an option completely.

I still think you should research indie schools as you have identified it as a backup but some are harder to get into than a grammar school and so not really a backup. I believe schools like Caterham and Sevenoaks School have samples of entrance exam papers to give you an idea of where he would need to be. Also some indie schools will have a high intake for 13 year olds as well as 11 year olds and I believe that boys are more likely to go into these at 13 whereas girls are more likely to go to an independent school at 11 in Kent. I don't have boys but my friends with boys at private schools have difficult decisions to make with regards to when they should go to secondary school. Among my group of friends mums of boys are more stressed than mums of girls but we could be unrepresentative.

To be honest some independent schools really aren't much better than a state school in terms of results (although they have many other qualities that might make them suitable for a specific child) and are easy to get into but you sound like you want results from a school so these might not be suitable - but they'll have glossy brochures, fantastic facilities and a Headteacher who is a fantastic salesperson so you'll need to do your research.

StealthNinjaMum · 03/11/2017 10:43

Sorry I misread, I thought your child was year 4. Doh! Much too early for assessments.

vik2017 · 03/11/2017 11:37

@StealthNinjaMum: Is it really the case that some indi perform under than comps?? I have not been to any but will definitely visit schools before I commit to any. So this is only laying down the plan sort of thing and once I have a plan then will start picking up bits, I mean start visiting schools and if like any then best property for us and then commit to it.
If DS cannot get to grammar then will not send him to any indi but the best we found (if I am paying then pay for the best). I know it is much harder than to say but as DS would have been preparing for his grammar, he probably be good enough to get to a decent indi. Thing is, we cannot be 100% sure about anything that is why I said, it is more to do with planning first and we are at our first stage coz dont know if DS will even like the school/tuition/mates or even wants to study hard or not.
I am just preparing ourselves for the commitment but end of the day it will be DS to cooperate...if he does not want to...there is very less we can do but can always try which I am planning and ready to do...

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 03/11/2017 11:44

OP- I am sure you're aware of this, but just in case. When you're researching schools remember that the results from a comprehensive school are bound to look worse than the results of a grammar because grammars take all abilities. Including those who will, with the best will in the world, only scrape a few GCSEs. For a fair comparison, you need to look at the performance of the high achievers at a comprehensive. Which often look very different to the overall figures.

MumTryingHerBest · 03/11/2017 12:07

vik2017 I hope you don't mind me asking but why do you think your DC would be best suited to a Grammar School education?

Smellylittleorange · 03/11/2017 13:55

@BertrandRussell sorry - you mean because "comprehensives take all abilities" don't you?

Just wanted to clarify for OP

StealthNinjaMum · 03/11/2017 14:07

I don't have long to answer as I need to pop out but there are schools who don't add much value. So a child enters a secondary school at a certain achievement level (sorry I don't know the correct terms) and the expectation is they will leave on a specific level. Some schools claim to 'add value' so the child will leave at a higher level than would be expected. Some independent schools are quite cagey about the amount of value they add (i.e. they don't - but they might have other benefits). I need to do research into this information so I'm not an expert but I hear lots of anecdotes about which schools aren't as good academically but are good for other reasons.

The thing is at your son's age you just don't know if he is suitable for grammar. I have friends in the private sector who are not looking for conventional good results as their number one desire - but what school is 'best' depends n the parents and child. I have friends who have looked at schools for reasons like their 10 year old child likes drama, or art, or science, or sports, or has dyslexia or SEN or behavioural issues and some independent schools are better than others with these things. Some people want their child to board, some want their kids to learn latin and classics or do igcses or the international baccalaureate. My dd loves science - and while I have no idea if she will be the same in 5 years - when we view schools we ask questions like 'how often do you conduct experiments in science?' and one very 'good' results school said rarely and another slightly less good school said every week. Obviously I prefer the second school and think dd will be happier there and will be more motivated to study - even though if I push her she could possibly get into the 'better' school.

BertrandRussell · 03/11/2017 14:13

"@BertrandRussell sorry - you mean because "comprehensives take all abilities" don't you?

Oops-sorry. Thank you!

mountford100 · 03/11/2017 14:48

Secondary Modern schools take all Abilities.

However, that makes them a Comprehensive school !

comprehensive school
noun
1.
(mainly Brit) a secondary school for children of all abilities from the same district

There is no mention of it having to be in any area with no selection.

The only thing required to be a comprehensive school is to have at least 1 child in low middle and high ability cohort.

That is the strict definition of what a Comprehensive school is, therefore any school covering the three bases of academic abilities is a comprehensive school.

The term 'secondary modern' was a Government constructed term and actually does not define anything.

mountford100 · 03/11/2017 14:51

Therefore it is possible for a selective grammar school to be a comprehensive school, if 1 child from a low ability cohort was admitted.

Ta1kinPeece · 03/11/2017 14:52

Just to clarify a point .....
I am that hated Comp parent who chose not to send my kids to my local Comp.
Why ?
Well start with the fact that the school has 400 empty spaces so its not just me that thinks the same way.
Then add in that its a sponsored academy with a chain that regularly gets roasted for excessive head office salaries.
Then add in that they went for two terms with not a single employed science teacher
And three terms with not one MFL teacher.

I know the "bright kids will thrive anywhere" ideas
but not without teachers they won't
So I spent the money to bus them up to the next comp.

Vik
If you compare the GCSE results of Mountbatten, Romsey, Thornden and Kings with those of Hampshire Collegiate you'll see that upper sets of comps can significantly out perform private schools.

The numbers of ex fee paying kids who then go to Symonds and Barton for 6th form proves the point even more (hundreds of them BTW)

BertrandRussell · 03/11/2017 14:53

If I was going to pay for private school, it wouldn't be for results.

Ta1kinPeece · 03/11/2017 14:54

mountford
As always you are being disingenuous.

A comprehensive school is one that does not select.
Full stop.
So it cannot have any entry criteria other than date of birth and catchment
Nothing about god, gonads or NVR

mountford100 · 03/11/2017 15:01

You see this is the point, every school selects its pupils whether that be via exam, catchment , perception or because no other school will have them !

Floralnomad · 03/11/2017 15:11

What we found when looking round 6th forms for ds ( Grammars) was that the influx from local independents was quite high at 6th form .

ChocolateWombat · 03/11/2017 15:15

Mountdord, those definitions are really unhelpful.

Yes, in selective area, both schools where you have to pass the exam and the schools you get when you don't pass the exam could theoretically both have some children of all abilities in them - however, they wouldn't be comprehensives.

Comprehensive schools only exist in areas where all state schools take in regardless of ability. Most countries have this. There will still be some schools with very few low ability children and some with absolutely loads, which will largely be due to where the schools are located and so who goes there. However, they are all comprehensives because they admit irregardless of ability.

In areas where there are grammars, you can only get a place if you pass the test. This means the grammars are not comprehensive, even if somehow some low ability children creep in, because they are not admitting absolutely everyone regardless of ability - you have to pass a test. And the consequence is then felt in the other schools where you do t have to pass a test - the secondary moderns,nor Upper schools or High schools or whatever you wish to call them. In areas where everyone takes the 11+ (like Bucks, where it's an opt out, rather than opt in, so the majority do sit it) children are stated to be 'grammar qualified' or 'upper qualified' - they deliberately don't say failed, but try to make a positive of both types of school - which is a good thing. Some of the Grammar qualified children may opt for an upper or secondary modern school, but the vast vast majority who are grammar qualified go for a grammar. If 25% qualify for grammars, 75% don't and the upper or secondary moderns don't have the full 100% range of ability so they are not Comps. They may be very good schools and may achieve at a higher level than some Comps, but they are not Comps. They may have cleverer children than some Comps where there is no selection in those particular areas, but they are not Comps.

Comps only exist in areas where none of the state schools in the area select by ability.

If you want to call the Sec Moderns or Uppers Comps, then you will also have to call the Grammars Comps too.

All of this jargon discussing comes about because people feel it is acceptable to say their child goes to a Comp, but not that they go to a Sec Modern or Upper or High school or whatever term is used. It is because when you go to a Comp, you haven't been excluded from a selective school by not passing an exam. However, if you go to a Sec Modern or Upper, you usually are there because you CANNOT go to the alternative, becaue you either didn't pass the exam or you chose not to sit it - so you are not qualified to be at that school. That is the reality, and somehow people like to use the word Comp to avoid recognising that reality.

So, regarding the great non-Grammars in Kent, of which there are a number, most of the children in them are not qualified to attend the Grammars. This maybe because their parents chose not to put them through the 11+ process, but just to go for the good non-grammar....absolutely fine, but it means they are not grammar qualified. And the other group are those who did sit the 11+ but didn't pass it and so are not grammar qualified.

In a true Comp area, no-one is absent from a school because they are not academically qualified. You might not get in because you don't live near enough or have a sibling or meet the religious criteria.....but it will never be because you haven't passed an academic test.

Ask any teacher in a full grammar area - they will never call the non-grammars Comps. and actually you will find they often use the term Sec Modern amongst themselves, even if it isn't the official name of the school - because in fully selective areas, schools are grammar or sec modern.

MumTryingHerBest · 03/11/2017 15:54

mountford100 - You see this is the point, every school selects its pupils

I don't agree. Schools can only offer places on the basis of their admissions criteria.

Comps. can not select only the brightest children within a 200 mile radius nor do they have any control over who lives within their catchement area. Where comps. are being dominated by priveleged families, it is because the family has selected the school, not the other way around.

If they are a co-ed school they can not choose to only offer places to girls or only offer places to boys.

They can not refuse a child with SEN on the basis of low academic performance (which Grammar schools do in the form of an entrance exam).

If a comp. has places available they have to offer a place to any child that applies. Grammar schools, however, do not.

mountford100 · 03/11/2017 15:56

If i was not being disingenuous i would suggest a comprehensive school had a make up of at least 40% high attaining pupils 40% middle ability and 20% low ability students.

A number of 'secondary modern' schools have less than 20% low ability pupils while a number of comprehensive schools have far less than 40% high ability pupils.

Some designated 'Modern schools' have been so academically successful they quote level '5 ' for GCSE pass rates for English/Maths and not level 4. One such school got 60%(83% @L 4) level 5 in English/Maths.
This exceeds the fully comprehensive schools in the adjoining non selective areas.

Suggesting that this school is a secondary modern is like a 'millionaire' businessman who employs 100 people claiming he is working class.

As Marx concluded you cannot be working class , if you own the means of production. This related to schools means any school that is able to get its pupils to Russel or Oxbridge Universities , owns the means to their production.

There are schools similar to this. However, what it does mean is definition of a school is a complicated issue. We should instead be concentrating on labeling schools as good or bad , not by the type of education delivered by the school . This especially as the '1950/60 s secondary modern education is no longer relevant.

N.B Every single secondary school enables access, to sixth form study whether through A levels Btec's or Apprenticeships . Therefore a secondary modern education (where children left at Easter) does not exist .

MumTryingHerBest · 03/11/2017 15:56

Floralnomad a fair number of Grammar School children move from state to private for 6th form and a fair number of children move from non-selective to selective for 6th form.

BertrandRussell · 03/11/2017 16:02

"If i was not being disingenuous i would suggest a comprehensive school had a make up of at least 40% high attaining pupils 40% middle ability and 20% low ability students"
Where do these figures come from?

"Some designated 'Modern schools' have been so academically successful they quote level '5 ' for GCSE pass rates for English/Maths and not level 4. One such school got 60%(83% @L 4) level 5 in English/Maths."

Is this in Telford with its mysteriously disappearing low ability cohort?

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