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Secondary education

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Original poster

Defence secretary announces more cadet units in schools to instil discipline and loyalty

97 replies

noblegiraffe · 04/10/2017 17:29

The Troops to Teachers programme to instil discipline in today's youth was a total failure (no one wanted to do it), so there's a new plan to bring the military to the disaffected and disobedient. 500 extra cadet units will be opened in schools across England and Wales by 2020, focusing on areas of particular deprivation or high ethnic minority representation(!)

www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-news/defence-secretary-announces-expansion-cadet-units-schools

OP posts:
mpsw · 05/10/2017 08:48

The numbers in the Armed Forces are being cut (again) and there is no shortage of applicants. There's simply no need for a recruitment drive.

And there is no overt recruiting activity going on in CCFs, but of course if people do it and like it, it is a good way to find out more about what is involved. Any potential applicants would still have to go through the full recruitment programme, which is scripted and has to include clear and unambiguous statements about the risks and requirements (being killed or killing)

2014newme · 05/10/2017 08:50

Archery it's not joining the forces at all. The majority of cadets never join the forces. It's outdoor pursuit s, qualifications, adventure, sports. The leaders are majority volunteers with no connection to the military.
Only a very small % ever join the majority it is definitely not a recruiting ground. None of the cadets at my school joined the military.

Kazzyhoward · 05/10/2017 08:52

Can only be a good thing. Around here, there's only one school that has any form of cadets group. The other cadet groups, such as police, fire , navy, army and air force are all grossly oversubscribed and it's a real race to apply each year when the application windows open. Far too many kids wanting to join and far too few places for them. Same with scouts - waiting lists to join. That's all fine for the pushy kids and pushy parents. There needs to be something to "hoover up" the disadvantaged and disenfranchised who would either not know about the outside school cadet schemes or have no easy way of accessing them (i.e. parents who don't give a toss!). The school environment is a way of facilitating these kids to join in something like that. Bring it on!

ArcheryAnnie · 05/10/2017 08:53

Why do it with a forces framework at all, then, 2014, if it's nothing to do with the military, they don't want people to join, it's certainly not got a recruitment motive, and the volunteers are not military?

It makes no sense.

Kazzyhoward · 05/10/2017 08:55

The majority of cadets never join the forces.

Exactly. People going on about being pacifists are missing the point. My son goes to police cadets. He has ZERO intention of joining the police. Of his group of say 30, there are only a couple who have career plans in the police. At his interview to join, the guy told him they don't expect the applicants to want to join - it's all about learning life skills, meeting new people, voluntary work, etc, and if they get 1 or 2 per year who go onto a career in the police, they're happy with that!

TheFairyCaravan · 05/10/2017 08:55

I can't see the problem tbh. The cadets could be the making of some of these children and if they did join the military it could provide them with a life and career that was beyond their wildest dreams.

Joining the military doesn't mean chucking on combats, putting on the cam cream, grabbing your gun and standing on the front line. There are loads of careers you can do. DH has been an aircraft mechanic for over 30 years. He left school with average qualifications. He wouldn't have had the life he's had on Civvie Street. He's worked on a huge amount of aircraft from Spitfires to Typhoons.

DS1 joined the army at 19. He's got all his GSCEs and 3 grade A A levels. He's an amazing soldier. He's gained mechanical qualifications as has the blokes he joined with who didn't have the same grades as he does.

He's been skiing, sailing, snowboarding and mountain biking with the army. His best mate who went too had never been on a plane, or abroad, because his parents were too poor. He's played rugby and football in the USA for his regiment and he swims for them. He's having an amazing time atm.

There's bad sides to being in the military. Your life isn't your own but there's quite a lot of good ones and tbh kids could do a lot worse.

Kazzyhoward · 05/10/2017 08:59

It makes no sense.

Rubbish. It makes just as much sense as all the other schemes aimed at "youths", i.e. the myriad of sporting activities, scouts, youth clubs, etc. It's all about giving the kids something to do, inspiring them.

How many of your local youth football team will go onto be professional players? How many of the local boxing club will turn pro? How many professional dancers & gymnasts does your local dance group or gym produce??

2014newme · 05/10/2017 09:00

Archery I did not say it has no links to the military of course it does. I said it's not a recruiting ground.

Kazzyhoward · 05/10/2017 09:02

Joining the military doesn't mean chucking on combats, putting on the cam cream, grabbing your gun and standing on the front line.

Exactly!! One of my closest friends is a dental hygienist. She trained as whilst being in the armed forces. She's never even touched a gun in her life. She did her required number of years, did a tour of duty in Ireland and Germany doing basic dental work for the troups and other support staff, and then left and spent the majority of her working life in High Street dental practices!

Abra1d · 05/10/2017 09:05

Private schools tend to have Officer Training Corps rather than army cadets ...

Not the private schools I know--it's cadets.

Abra1d · 05/10/2017 09:09

Eton has CCF: combined cadet force, too.

How dare the evil Tories inflict something that Eton has on disadvantaged children.

mpsw · 05/10/2017 09:10

OTC is universities only.

CCF in schools.

ArcheryAnnie · 05/10/2017 09:12

But why not have all this inspiring, magical stuff without a military framework if there's the money and the volunteers available for it - which there clearly is?

Someone's DH being in the army, and someone's DS joining at 19 are irrelevant - they are adults, not schoolchildren.

And if you don't see the difference between a youth football/ballet/drama team and a cadet unit, then you need to educate yourself.

glenthebattleostrich · 05/10/2017 09:14

I personally know several people from chaotic families (you know the kind that some on MN refuse to believe exist) who have benefited from being cadets. It's the first time they have been given positive attention and discipline in many cases.

I think it is a fantastic idea, I'd happily send DD when she's old enough.

Abra1d · 05/10/2017 09:17

I don't need educating as my own son did a year in CCF. He disliked it and left. It wasn't for him. My husband, a former fairly senior army officer, warned my son that he hadn't liked it at school and didn't think my son would, either, but it was his decision to try.

But some of his friends enjoyed it very much. And one of my daughter's friends did gliding and found it thrilling.

Horses for courses but it's not up to you to dictate who gets to enjoy it or not. Let them try.

ArcheryAnnie · 05/10/2017 09:18

Also: kids at Eton are not exactly lacking for opportunities. It's much more of a free choice for them. You cannot reasonably compare it to offering cadets in low-income schools to disadvantaged kids.

2014newme · 05/10/2017 09:18

Archery yes that would be great. But in the absence of that this is a good option

TheFairyCaravan · 05/10/2017 09:19

Someone's DH being in the army, and someone's DS joining at 19 are irrelevant - they are adults, not schoolchildren.

It's not irrelevant at all. DS1 would've have joined at 16 but we wanted him to do his A levels first. Kids do join at 16 without cadets ever being near their schools.

The cadets aren't going into schools, chucking them a piece of paper and making the kids sign up for a 22yr career in the military. They are offering an activity.

If you want to set up a club without a military framework, get the volunteers together and crack on. The volunteers running cadets are doing it because they want to.

ArcheryAnnie · 05/10/2017 09:23

Horses for courses but it's not up to you to dictate who gets to enjoy it or not. Let them try.

Abra you aren't getting my point. It's not a question of whether they will enjoy it or not, or whether they would benefit from it or not. I am not saying don't do cadets at all - though I question entirely why the same opportunities can't be provided without the military framework if it's deffo not a recruitment option, no sirree. I'm am saying I think it's cynical and nasty to target disadvantaged children with this when they will not have other opportunities, and so it won't be the free choice that your kid had.

Give disadvantaged kids a choice, like other kids have. Don't offer them the bloody military as the only option out of their shit lives. It's nasty and cynical.

2014newme · 05/10/2017 09:24

And it's free. Whereas scouts is not free. Even if it's a few pounds a month lots of families can't afford that plus uniform us trips.
A Scout camp may be £100 so not accessible to some families. Cadets it's all funded. The cadets in our town are off to Cyprus at no cost to the individual cadets.

ArcheryAnnie · 05/10/2017 09:26

DS1 would've have joined at 16

The United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child has quite a few harsh things to say about the UK recruiting under-18s into the armed forces, just so you know.

2014newme · 05/10/2017 09:26

Archery feel free to set up such an organisation. See how easy it is to run, fund, govern, organise, recruit volunteers for without an existing infrastructure.

mpsw · 05/10/2017 09:27

How would it be offered?

Well, Scouts, DofE, NCS etc. If you want schools to offer more of this, then campaign for it, volunteer for your local units and apply for grants.

Or set up a whole new organisation if you don't think those organisations cover the same ground.

Can I ask again, as I think my question upthread may have been overlooked, is anyone familiar with the evidence that was cited to support the continuation of the Labour policy of expansion?

ArcheryAnnie · 05/10/2017 09:28

^And it's free. Whereas scouts is not free. Even if it's a few pounds a month lots of families can't afford that plus uniform us trips.
A Scout camp may be £100 so not accessible to some families. Cadets it's all funded. The cadets in our town are off to Cyprus at no cost to the individual cadets.^

if there is the public funding available to make this happen, then it should be able to make this happen without a military framework. if it's really all about giving poor kids excitement and life chances, then nobody should object to this happening without a military framework.

ArcheryAnnie · 05/10/2017 09:30

Archery feel free to set up such an organisation. See how easy it is to run, fund, govern, organise, recruit volunteers for without an existing infrastructure.

Yes, because I have as much power to access funds and infrastructure as, oh, the Defence Secretary. Sure.

If it is happening with forces money, then it's happening with public money. I want this public money to be used to provide these opportunities to disadvantaged children without a military framework.