Teaching to stop being a graduate-only profession - 18 year old teachers.

[noblegiraffe]

There were rumblings about this a while ago when the apprenticeship levy was introduced, but it looks like Justine Greening is going to introduce an apprencticeship route into teaching.

schoolsweek.co.uk/greening-teaching-will-cease-to-be-only-for-university-graduates/

I'm very concerned that in secondary schools, specialist subject knowledge won't be a pre-requisite for going into the classroom, it will be seen as something that can be picked up across the years, shortchanging the classes who get the apprentice in the first few years of the training (how long is an apprenticeship?).

In primary school, the education of a class for a full year could fall to someone just out of school themselves.

This isn't just about training on-the-job, we already have that as a route into teaching. This is about deprioritising a certain level of education for teachers and devaluing the profession. It's saying you don't need to be well-educated to teach, because you could be teaching straight out of school. The 'learning how to teach' part of any teacher training programme is so intense, that acquiring degree-level subject knowledge will certainly not be a priority from the start.

The wage for apprentices means this is just another way for schools to get teachers on the cheap and hang the consequences for education.

And knowing how many parents already view young teachers, fresh out of uni and just finished their PGCE, how will they take to having their child being taught by someone who hasn't even been to university?

Really quals are only the tip of the iceberg. Imagine Mavis gets 3 A* at A level - she is a bright girl, but she is still only 18!

If she is double staffing a class it could work but if she is alone with 30 children there is no way she has the skills or experience to cope. Making sure the, often complex, needs of every child are met while managing class behaviour? No way.

Class room presence? At 18? It's just ludicrous.

If she were in another profession there would be certain meetings and situations you would not be placed in, cases you would not be given. Teaching does not work like that. Would she be given an 'easy' class? So called easy children can become very complex, very quickly when a parent dies or diagnosis is made.

Pestilentialone

Some people don't understand how apprenticeships work. I think I have posted about how teaching differs to other professions making an apprenticeship impractical.

It is the ignorance about teaching that I find more worrying.

Alternatively 18 year old Mavis could go and do a BEd and in her first year be plonked in, wait for it, a classroom with 30 kids .

titchy - Mature people currently working as TAs in schools who want to become qualified teachers

Most of the TAs I know are TAs by choice, not because they can't do the teacher training. Most are parents who have school aged children. They are doing the job because it allows them to have the work/home balance they want/need.

Mousse how is it any different to any other school based ITT programme?

Just because most TAs won't want to do it doesn't mean it shouldn't be an option for the few that do.

titchy

A class that has a classroom teacher. A class where the teacher leaves her alone when she feels ready. A class that is double staffed as I have said repeatedly.

Do you seriously believe the government would pay for an apprentice and a fully trained teacher to be in a classroom?

I also have issues with school based teacher training for graduates.

PGCE students in secondary always have the class teacher available to them.

Absolutely agree with the previous poster who talked about life experience. I'd go further and say no one should be allowed to teach unless they've done something outside the school uni teaching hamster wheel.

Many young teachers seem absolutely clueless about the realities of life outside their middle class bubble, punishing kids from chaotic homes for factors that are obviously out of their control.

Why would the government be paying? Schools pay their staff not the Government Schools pay trainees and also have to pay their training costs - making them apprentices means they don't have to fork out their training costs.

As I have said before - why do you think this would be any different?

Many young teachers seem absolutely clueless about the realities of life outside their middle class bubble, punishing kids from chaotic homes for factors that are obviously out of their control

This thread has some really depressing attitudes on it

Lessons have to be taught by a qualified teacher - that's not going to change is it? An apprentice wouldn't be qualified so they wouldn't be in sole charge of a class.

Nope that went out with academies.

So your objection is the whole concept of school-based training then, not the apprenticeship itself?

You should have said...

Alternatively 18 year old Mavis could go and do a BEd and in her first year be plonked in, wait for it, a classroom with 30 kids shock.

But that class would have their own full time CLASS TEACHER in it already!

Schools are already paying via an apprentice levy.

titchy - doesn't mean it shouldn't be an option for the few that do.

I don't think anyone said they shouldn't, did they?

I don't think I would have as much of an issue with a TA with a minimum of 1 year of class room experience wanting to go this route. I would have a probem with a teenager straight out of school, giving it a go though. After all with very little upfront commitment for them, what's to stop them packing it in after a few weeks?

titchy

Why would the government be paying? Schools pay their staff not the Government confused

The schools get all their money from the government.......

titchy Better than a three year degree which earns you zero and costs you £50k+....

Could this proposal end up with those people who would have otherwise have done the three year degree course, at their own expense, getting paid to achieve the same end goal. In which case, how is this saving money?

I'd go further and say no one should be allowed to teach unless they've done something outside the school uni teaching hamster wheel.

I agree with this. Teachers having a wider breadth of life experience would benefit them and also pupils. I don't think that the middle class bubble comment is helpful.

titchy

I have no issues with apprenticeships for professional jobs but I have explained in several posts why teaching is different. I think school based training has a number of drawbacks of which would be significantly exacerbated by using 18 year olds.

Properly funded it could work but based on all my previous experiences of many previous governments this would not be the case.

Life experience is vital for teachers, that is not depressing it's just true. I have worked in some form of educational establishment for over 20 years and I am still shocked by things I find out. Putting a middle class 18 year old into some of situations you can find yourself in would not be fair to anyone involved.

Properly funded it could work but based on all my previous experiences of many previous governments this would not be the case.

There's the rub. This could work. But not under current circumstances.

This could work. But not under current circumstances.

I don't think it would at secondary level, regardless of the circumstances.

Schools who have a wage bill of £3m have to pay 0.5% of this as an apprentice levy ie £15,000. They pay this to the government if they have no apprentices. If they had an apprentice teacher, they could pay it to them instead. They would have ONE apprentice who could move around the school, shadowing a handful of teachers, helping and learning. This model of learning has already been used in FE teaching.
The school as the employer would interview and choose a candidate. They would choose the best candidate for them, that may well not be an 18 yo. The school would not have spent any excess money. They would double staff classes.
If your school does it another way, they might well be a crap school.

Pestilentialone are many primary schools likely to have a £3m wage bill?

I am a parent not a teacher.

I have a child with SEN's..

My experience and it is based on one child going through school is the more experienced staff have done a spectacularly better job at getting the best out of my DS.. I think some of this is life experience/ teaching experience and understanding there is far more than one method of getting to the same point.
Now at some point everyone has to be a NQT in order to gain the experience but at 18 I don't think they have the life experience along with the teaching experience to think outside the box.

So I wish the government would look at more ways to retain the experienced staff.