Teaching to stop being a graduate-only profession - 18 year old teachers.

[noblegiraffe]

There were rumblings about this a while ago when the apprenticeship levy was introduced, but it looks like Justine Greening is going to introduce an apprencticeship route into teaching.

schoolsweek.co.uk/greening-teaching-will-cease-to-be-only-for-university-graduates/

I'm very concerned that in secondary schools, specialist subject knowledge won't be a pre-requisite for going into the classroom, it will be seen as something that can be picked up across the years, shortchanging the classes who get the apprentice in the first few years of the training (how long is an apprenticeship?).

In primary school, the education of a class for a full year could fall to someone just out of school themselves.

This isn't just about training on-the-job, we already have that as a route into teaching. This is about deprioritising a certain level of education for teachers and devaluing the profession. It's saying you don't need to be well-educated to teach, because you could be teaching straight out of school. The 'learning how to teach' part of any teacher training programme is so intense, that acquiring degree-level subject knowledge will certainly not be a priority from the start.

The wage for apprentices means this is just another way for schools to get teachers on the cheap and hang the consequences for education.

And knowing how many parents already view young teachers, fresh out of uni and just finished their PGCE, how will they take to having their child being taught by someone who hasn't even been to university?

To give a concrete example.

Two named unis are at the forefront: Leeds Trinity (bottom of ST uni league tables, basically...) and Uni of Herts (no comment)

My research (yes , I do and have!) suggests that Herts is being tasked with secondary L7 postgrad apprenticeships. they are already a major provider of various school based schemes.

I know less about the Leeds place but they don't seems to be doing L7 so this is where the non grad ones will be. Another one may end up being Sheffield Hallam. I think this is all part of the Northern Powerhouse agenda, perhaps?

My limited knowledge of Leeds Trinity tells me this will be primary BEd style apprentice degree.

The proof of the pudding will be in what schools actually expect of apprentices, over other trainees, given they will be paid.

I think this is all part of the Northern Powerhouse agenda, perhaps?

I think it's more likely to be part of the 'shit, we don't have enough teachers in the North' agenda.

I think that's what the Northern Powerhouse agenda, basically is!

Yes I am assuming true - I'm assuming the secondary will be a L7 - which Peggy's post seems to confirm. I've already said if secondary doesn't require a degree in an NC subject I'll be as horrified as everyone else. Don't forget the standards will be written by employers.

Not quite sure where the Northern Powerhouse conspiracy fits in - England isn't just the South East! Given that apprentices will have to attend at least one day a week for years we need universities around the country.

Again I'm not entirely sure where the sneery comments about Herts or Leeds Trinity come from (though very aware of their league table positions) - is someone suggesting the teachers who've trained at those institutions dont get jobs because of that?! I can't really believe schools are that fussy.

Assassinated beauty. There are great teachers and crap teachers as well as great engineers and crap engineers.

Whenever there is a conversation regarding teaching, 'some' teachers will tell you till they are blue in the face that their job is so much more difficult, harder and stressful than any other job. They do longer hours than anyone else for a pittance.

This attitude is what I am arguing against. There are lots of jobs that are hard, stressful and long hours. The point I am making is that teaching is no worse or better than other professions, but a small amount of teachers will always tell you it 'so hard'.

If other professions and sectors can make degree apprenticeships work, then with the right standards, a good end point assessment and a good mentor, then there is no reason why they shouldn't work.

I have worked in the education sector and my sister has taught for over 20 years and is now a deputy head. We have discussed degree apprenticeships and she is in favour.

You clearly are against the idea and I am clearly for the idea. I am no more mealy mouthed about teachers than you are about being a snowflake.

The difference is, Lucy, that no one is posting here about how engineers don’t do their jobs properly or how lawyers get long holidays. Lawyers don’t have random people rocking up and telling them that they are all shit and this is how to do it properly.

Every teacher will agree that there are other jobs that are more stressful and demand more of you. However, those jobs aren’t being run into the ground by the government or vilified by the public.

I've never seen a teacher argue that their job is so much more difficult than any other job. I have, however, seen plenty of people claim that teachers do this. It's an interesting way to dismiss workload concerns, and given that we are in the midst of a severe recruitment and retention crisis, raising concerns over additional workload is perfectly valid.

titchy I am not going to say much about where my knowledge of Herts Uni comes from but it is based on solid knowledge.

The Northern Powerhouse conspiracy comes directly for a government quote as to why Leeds Trinity has been picked.

Again, I feel confident I have done more research than you have *titchy8 !

titchy - sorry!

bold fail.

lucy - perhaps do some reading. Schools Week, ResearchEd, the Chartered College : all have their doubts about apprenticeships and their value in teacher education.

The police federation and the RCN have expressed qualms about degree apprenticeships, too.

On the flip side, some of the allied healthcare apprenticeships (eg paramedics) are seen a s a jolly good thing.

I think what others say whose opinions are valid and generally impressive does matter. Unless titchy outs herself as an education expert, I am going to take Laura McInerney's thoughts as carrying more validity.

82% of teachers surveyed through the Teacher Tapp app (which I thoroughly recommend!) were in favour of teaching remaining a graduate only profession. Hearing that someone knows a deputy head who thinks it's a good idea is hardly convincing.

Lawyers who do legal aid work get paid very little and we are much much much less popular than teachers with the public so I am not sure teachers have top place for those two points mentioned above!

And, can I add, social workers have doubts about this, too. They have worked to make social work a degree entry job. Social work degrees are arduous and intense - some do provide sandwich years. The feeling is that one day a week at uni will mean students have half formed ideas on social policy and will need extensive - and expensive- further trajning to progress their careers.

And again, an interesting issue arises - a trainee social worker is not let loose single handed on a complex case. You can work up from more straightforward cases or a support role in a case. I still can't extrapolate this out to teaching, I have to be honest.

No, in fact it is actually true when any survey is done that teachers are still held in high regard by the public !

With a PGCE there is work experience in more than one environment, a lot of theory to cover, the chance to meet a lot of other trainee teachers and experienced educators etc. Training on the job in one place teaches you about that particular environment only.

With a PGCE there is work experience in more than one environment, a lot of theory to cover, the chance to meet a lot of other trainee teachers and experienced educators etc

Not really. A primary PGCE only does two placements, so only one more environment than a graduate. There also isn't much theory any more.

Professor,

The PGCE I did, and the ones which we host students from, have 3 placements. 2 can be in the same school in different classes, but that is far from universally the case.

Mine had three, two in the same school in different classes. Same staff, school and experience, other than age of children.

I did my PGCE in the current top provider in Wales and it was a farce.

My primary PGCE had three placements plus a fourth placement in a special school.

I am looking for 11plus tuition in Isleworth hounslow if anybody please let me know.

My PGCE i did 2 big placements and a 3rd in an alternative context (e.g. pru, adult ed, 6th form, send etc)