Child not clever enough for grammar school- what do you do?

[BurnTheBlackSuit]

Not my situation, but something that cropped up in a conversation with a friend who lives in Kent.

A child who is averagely clever and without intensive tutoring is unlikely to pass the 11+. Many/all of friends at school are doing going to sit 11+.

What do you do? Tell your child they are not clever enough for grammar school or let them sit the test knowing that they will fail?

I would move out of Kent.

I think there is a good reason why houses in grammar school areas are relatively cheap (excluding London). There is no way I would consider moving to one of these areas if my child was anything less than the brightest of the bright. I also wouldn't move there if I had a child between the ages of 11 an 18.

But so many children are not the 'brightest of the bright'. The majority aren't. Surely the schools catering to their needs can't be failing them all?

The local grammars in Kent don't cater for the brightest of the bright. They go to the super selectives.

I think all non grammar schools are supposed to be comprehensive now.

The logic behind having separate schools has now gone. I could see the point when Grammar school pupils were expected to stay on until 16 and sit O levels and the rest left at 15. Then the school leaving age was raised, CSE's came along, to be replaced by GCSEs.

None of this helps the OPs friend. Although it still sounds like some preparation and sitting the test is a good way to go, and blame the test if she doesn't pass.

its not just Kent, we have Grammar schools in Gloucestershire too, 4 in Gloucester and 1 in Cheltenham. Its always a huge decision for most parents whether to enter your child or not, and most kids who enter have been tutored (its really big business round here with some tutors fully booked up and waiting lists!!).
Having said that there is a Comp in Cheltenham that outperforms most of the Grammars (and some of the private schools) every year, but its in the most expensive area of town of course with a really tight catchment.

We live in Kent; I have four children. One is at superselective, one at grammar (chose not to apply to the superselective although had qualifying score) and I have two more coming up through - one is taking his 11+ next September, and although he is bright enough, he lacks confidence in himself. We are going to do the school tours in September and I hope that he will discover an affiinity with a school - he wants to follow his brother to the superselective, but there are no guarantees and he doesn't thrive on pressure in quite the same way as his sibling.....we are lucky that the town in which we live has some excellent non-grammar alternatives, two of which have 'grammar streams' for bright children who either chose not to take the 11+ or who took it but didn't want to go to grammar, or who missed by a whisker.

My children have wanted to take the test, and so we've encouraged them and helped them to be prepared, but if they really didn't want to (or we thought they wouldn't be able to keep up at the grammars) then we wouldn't force them, but would stress the excellent alternatives....I guess in your friend's case it depends what the alternatives are (private isn't an option for us here - the good ones are beyond our financial reach and the others are not much better than the local state alternatives).

I went to primary school in a London borough in which there are no Grammar schools, and many of the Secondary schools at the time were not very good in terms of results or behaviour.

I was in the top ability groups in each subject at primary school and has really high aspirations, and would achieve top marks in any tests.

A neighbouring borough have some Grammar schools, and their non-selective schools were are far better than those in the borough in which I lived.

I didn't receive any coaching or tuition for the 11+, but my parents bought me 11+ practice books from WH Smith's, and they would help me to go through these with me. They never placed any pressure on me, it was me who applied pressure on myself. They told me that if I didn't pass it wasn't the end of the world, and I would still do well regardless of what school I attended.

I ended up with 4 marks short of the requirement for entry into a Grammar school. I was really disappointed with myself, and I cried. My parents reassured me that I would be fine, and that I stood a better chance of entry into a non-selective school in that borough, as at the time they wouldn't consider people from outside the borough who hadn't taken the 11+, except for in exceptional circumstances.

I attended a Secondary school in that borough, and I was in the top sets for all of my subjects. I felt I was really able to flourish, and I was recognised as an over-achiever by my Teachers. I went on to achieve the best GCSE grades in my year group, and again at A Level. I was a very quietly confident and assertive teenager, mature beyond my years (according to my school reports!)

I really do not think I would have done so well if I had achieved the extra points needed for a Grammar school, as I would have just got in, and would've been in the lower sets. I can't imagine that would've done much for my confidence.

Perhaps taking the 11+ makes it easier or possible for your friend's child to enter a non-selective school in a particular borough, as with me?
That is the only situation in which I would advise someone to take the 11+ if they couldn't access tuition or were of average intelligence, otherwise I don't really see the point and it could be quite damaging to the child in my opinion.

Kent is full of private schools catering to the DC that did not pass the 11+ but have parents wealthy enough to pay.

If you cannot afford private for 11- 16 some families move DC to a 13+ prep at 11 with the intention of getting an occasional place at a decent secondary at 13.

Move? To an area with comprehensive schools?

Go to the allocated school and employ tutors if necesary.

Go to the allocated school and find yourself pleasantly surprised?

There are a few grim secondary moderns in Kent, but most are OK.

The other thing to consider is this...you say she's "very average" at her primary school, but is she "very average" compared to the 8000 or whatever that take the Kent test?

Over 60% of my DCs class passed last year. So many not on top or even second tables...

Sorry over 14,000 took test last year....

The grammar school system is so wrong

I'll correct that for you - The super-selective grammar school system is so wrong.

Kids already know who is academically brighter, who is stronger at which subject area and who has strengths elsewhere.

I'd be honest and explain that the exam only tests these areas and we know these aren't strong one. I'd also remind them they don't test x,y,z which are the child's strengths.
And then give them the choice as to whether they want to give it a go.

I have a ds who is a bright kid but in the wrong subjects! He would do well in most areas of a grammar school but wouldn't pass an entry exam as writing is a significant weak area. He is very talented at practical stuff, ict and humanities. He knows this so would likely be ok being forewarned about the exam. However, would find out from friends about it so would quickly work out if we were lying so we would have to be honest with him.

I am a strong believer in supporting kids to attempt things and go out of the comfort zone to try and fail sometimes. So long as they know it's ok to fail and it's ok to be different and feel 💯 supported regardless

Whoah, Kazzy - super patronising, or what!

"The word comprehensive Doesn't mean average ability intake. It means no selection on ability."

"Non-selective " means no selection by ability.

"Comprehensive" means it offers and provides education for the full, comprehensive, range of ability. Comprehensives came in when grammar and secondary moderns were scrapped in most areas. To educate everyone who would previously have been separated by passing or failing the 11+. If a county routinely educates the top 25% by ability in grammar schools, then how can the remaining ('high schools') be properly comprehensive?

Personally (Kazzy) I think there is more wrong with the grammar system, than with a comprehensive area with the occasional super-selective. But having had a good experience with an excellent comprehensive for my kids(not in a wealthy area) I think this is what we need to be moving towards.

Just read your update OP. I prefer your approach. You can't write a kid off without giving them a chance. She may surprise everyone...

I'd go for the secondary and make the best of it.

Take these two children, we will call them John and Jim. John went to the super selective grammar and Jim didn't get in. John developed anxiety and stress and the school were unsupportive. Jim went to the bog standard secondary which had a mixed reputation. John got poor grades and ended up at a low ranking university, Jim got into a top university.

Take these two children

Nice story, but how about a different slant. Fred was bright but his parents didn't sit him for the 11+ as they believed that comps were just as good for bright kids. He went to the local comp, and although he started off a straight A pupil, he fell by the wayside because of bullying as many of his class mates regarded him as the class swot which was uncool. Because he was well behaved, the teachers didn't notice him and didn't realise he wanting reaching his potential. After five years, he ended up with poor GCSEs. Yes, that was me!

wasn't not wanting!

Kazzy,

The point is, the school you went to - or 'Fred' goes to - is not a comp. It is a secondary modern, because it does not have a comprehensive intake (ie one that is in its spread of ability fully represents the catchment it serves).

In a true comp, there would have been a bright peer group for Fred, who would not have stood out for being a class swot, and might therefore have done very differently. In a secondary modern, as an outlier, he stood out more, and therefore was perhaps more vulnerable to bullying..

We live in an 11 plus area. My child has a SpLD and I don't think the accomodation for SEN in the 11 plus are adequate, so I have decided that he will not be sitting it and we will fund private education to 18. I appreciate that I am lucky to be able to have that choice.

He went to the local comp, and although he started off a straight A pupil, he fell by the wayside because of bullying as many of his class mates regarded him as the class swot which was uncool. Because he was well behaved, the teachers didn't notice him and didn't realise he wanting reaching his potential. After five years, he ended up with poor GCSEs. Yes, that was me!

This should not happen at all in a good school. Progress for each individual should be monitored. Good behaviour rewarded and bullying tackled straight away.

What you have described is just a bad school. This could happen in a comp or grammar. Bullying, probably for reasons other than academic achievement, can happen at a bad grammar. Children can still go by the wayside at a bad grammar.

Not all the academic achievers are well behaved. Not all the ones who achieve less academically are badly behaved. To say so is just a cliche.

A friend of mine's daughter sat the exam for grammar school and failed. She'd had no tutoring or done practice papers. Went to the local non-grammar (a comprehensive, but I suppose in fact it acts as a secondary modern once all the grammar pupils have been creamed off), got all A* in 12 GCSEs, the same with A-levels and headed off to a top university where she got a first.

Another friend's daughter went to a grammar school, but just scraped in, was in the bottom sets for everything, lost confidence, scraped a handful of GCSES and left school - didn't even take any A-levels.

The point is, the school you went to - or 'Fred' goes to - is not a comp

Yes it was - it was after the grammars in our area had been scrapped.

My local town has two schools, both outstanding. The non GS has a progress 8 score of 0.52, the GS has a progress 8 score of 0.47.

A school doesn't have to be a GS to make a difference.

DD took the 11+ and passed, then said she did not want to go to grammar school. So even those who are "clever enough" don't always feel the right fit.

She aced her GCSEs anyhow at our local just-about-comprehensive school (or whatever we are calling them now...)

She is going to grammar for A levels (Boys' grammar with mixed sixth). Her choice.

We live in an 11+ area and with dc2 already can see won't be one of those going to grammar. This is more complex for us as dc1 probably will. We have the advantage of having different sex dcs so we can pick a single sec grammar for dc1, meaning that dc2 couldn't go to the same school anyway.

I do think it's odd that it's seen as "grammar or school of the dammed" - most kids don't go to grammar, it's less than 25% here, so the bulk are going to comps.

It would be difficult if "all" their friends were going to the grammar, but in a class of 30, 22 would be going to non-grammar options, so it's not like the OPs friends child would know no one. I would rather make sure I was encouraging a range of friendships so my dc didn't feel that their only friends would all be somewhere else.

I think the grammar thing is a bit of a red herring though, if the local comp isn't good enough, or if all friends were going elsewhere, then they would be facing similar issues.

I don't think it automatically lowers the standard of education for the 75% to have the top 25% educated in a different building - it's unlikely they'd end up educated in the same classes anyway due to most "real" comps streaming.