Child not clever enough for grammar school- what do you do?

[BurnTheBlackSuit]

Not my situation, but something that cropped up in a conversation with a friend who lives in Kent.

A child who is averagely clever and without intensive tutoring is unlikely to pass the 11+. Many/all of friends at school are doing going to sit 11+.

What do you do? Tell your child they are not clever enough for grammar school or let them sit the test knowing that they will fail?

Start saving for a less academic public school.

Yeah. My DC cried and cried and cried. My fault, natch.

I think if they have no chance of passing, you build them up to think they will pass etc is obviously different to borderline child. It's a tricky balancing act - with our DC we tried very hard to big up the sec mod and that they may not pass but it'd be fine etc but that's tough to balance if they get a sniff of you thinking they aren't capable by saying that

I'd, personally, be positive about the comp. Encourage the child's extra curricular interests. Encourage the child's academic interests. Comp does not mean failure. Both myself and my brother went to a comp. Both of us are also university educated. My brother also did post grad.

"Comp does not mean failure"

Phew. That's a relief!

I have't read the thread properly, but just in case nobody's said it yet, in fully selective areas, the non grammar schools are not comprehensives.

The results seem pretty good in Kent for the non selectives.

We have a grammar in our area and the comp is a comp. And good. Many choose to not take the 11 plus and go there. As my DC did. Doing well.

And I don't think being bitter about our education system does anything to actually help those in the midst of it.

I don't agree with the selection process and how it favours those wealthy enough to tutor, intensively or not.

DD is going to grammar, passed the test without tuition but we did buy a couple of books with three papers in from W H S and she did those in the two weeks before the test.

She had done the bond VR and NVR books in yr 3 when we home edded just because someone in our he group used them and it looked like a good thing to do. We didn't live anywhere near a GS at that point. She went back to school in YR and hadn't looked at them since.

I know someone a couple of years older than DD who just scraped in - marks on the pass line, two years in she is doing really well whilst some of the intensively tutored kids are doing less well.

The 11plus is adjusted for age in the school year where I live.

I wouldn't pay for intensive tutoring, I would buy some books and try to work on it at home to see how this child fared.

GS is not the be all and end all though, better a happy well adjusted kid thriving in the school that suits them than a pressured little thing not coping.

If I thought my DD wasn't cut out for it I would move schools in a heartbeat.

But Bernard some try to argue that non grammar schools are comprehensive. Yes, you can refuse a grammar school place and send a child to a sec mod, but it still doesn't make it comprehensive, and yes in some genuinely comprehensive areas things like catchment areas and the existence of a large number of private schools make some comprehensives less comprehensive in intake than they should be. Consider e.g. Oxford City with Cherwell serving north Oxford with its wealthy population and University educated parents and Oxford Academy serving the areas around the car factory and a couple of estates. But that is a different problem.

"And I don't think being bitter about our education system does anything to actually help those in the midst of it."

Why are people who don't like selective education always accused of being "bitter"?

I'd look at the options available at both sets of schools. I don't live in a grammar school area (although there are private grammar schools available).
Do the non-selective schools offer more vocational type courses? One of my sons is very academic and would thrive in a grammar school but my other is really not suited to the classroom. He's very practical though, and is doing hands-on subjects at GCSE and an NVQ in construction, with a view to taking on an apprenticeship and learning a trade when he leaves school.
If there are options more suited to a less academic/more practical pupil at the non-selective school I'd be selling that to the child, as in they get to play to their strengths and would enjoy it more. I'd get over my own sense of kudos (because let's face it, there is an element f that) and encourage my child to be the best they can be.
If there weren't those choices, and it was just a case of pass or fail, but with more of a push at grammar school, I'd probably get tuition for them.
I'm generally against forcing kids down a route that doesn't suit them though. It's a lot of pressure and affects their self esteem. Much better to find them a setting where they can thrive and be happy.

I find that I am not understanding this secondary modern or comp schools. It is really confusing. Where I live you just have high schools that you choose due to distance from where you live. I live in uk. I think most of high schools here are academies, is that why I have no idea what you are talking about?

Why are people who don't like selective education always accused of being "bitter"?

Ha, I'd be accusing myself then! I don't agree with selective education either. However I also believe firmly about being proactive and positive regarding the choices on offer. Shit happens - if you don't deal with it, it will bury you.

I'll be honest - in this situation and in our circumstances I'd go private. If that wasn't an option, I'd look to find a genuinely comprehensive (non 11+) area and move there. But that's not hugely helpful to the OP.

I live in a grammar school area - DD1 passed; DD2 didn't - neither of them were tutored - we're very lucky in that the local non-grammar is good so I presented it to both of them as 'if you pass great and if not great too'
I see so many parents who tutor intensively and then the poor child can't cope or end up in bottom set feeling like they're not good enough. Hate the whole bloody system!!

And subversively, if people are more positive about the non selective schools, to the extent of choosing them over the selective, it actually dismantled that divisive and selective system. In our area this happens.

How do you define a comprehensive vs a secondary modern?

When I was at school in the 1970s you couldn't take O levels in a secondary modern. Thank goodness we have moved on since then.

Just a word of caution. Yes, tutors help with the entrance but they will not help the pupil once they are there. Grammar schools can be great if you are acedmic and like being pushed, but can be tough on children who work their socks off and get dismissed for not being up to the standards expected.

I think all non grammar schools are supposed to be comprehensive now. However if the Grammars 'cream off' the top academic achievers then the ability range for streaming and setting is effected and they end up specialising in a narrower range of abilities.

In response to the OP, children know where they sit in the class in terms of ability however much teachers call them apples/pears or circles/squares.

Your friend's DC will know if their friends are brighter than them and by year 4-5 will have opinions on whether to sit 11+ or not. She needs to have the discussion honestly and offer her the chance to give it a go or decline with dignity.

My friend was in this situation. She sent her daughter out of area to the nearest naive comp. daughter was a late developer and got a good set of A*s,As and a couple of Bs at GCSE. Now going to the grammar for A levels. Friend believes daughter benefitted massively from being a high flyer at her school.

Friend believes daughter benefitted massively from being a high flyer at her school.

This is dependent on the child. My DC I believe would have dumbed themselves down for fear of the spotlight.

From what friends child said to me, she wants to go to the grammar school. This is possibly because her friends want to go there and are sitting the 11+. However, because she is very average (not bottom of class, not top), her mother (my friend) thinks she won't pass it.

But then she is in the situation of basically tell her daughter she thinks she is not clever enough for grammar school, or let her sit a test that she will most probably fail and have to deal with the fall out of that and the pressure of sitting a test in the first place.

I think she she probably let her take the test and then blame the test for her failure. Friend thinks she shouldn't take the test in the first place, but then has to tell her why she's not doing the 11+ when her friends are...

I do feel for her - it's the shittiest place to be in a selective area - borderline/middle.

Problem is if she doesn't let her take the test, then she runs the risk of the DD blaming her for that in years to come.