Is this school govenor's take on Progress 8 scores correct?

[PossumInAPearTree]

Dds school recently had a shocking Ofsted and got put in special measures. Bottom 10% of schools nationwide for progress and results according to the report.

Head has made it clear in emails home and to kids in assembly they disagree with the report, as has the governor.

Governor says the reason for the poor Progress 8 score is because the school has standards and won't pull tricks other schools do such as putting nAtive English speakers in for an English as a Foreign Language qualification purely so the kids get points/ a qualification.

Surely if this is what other schools are doing Ofsted would pick up on this?

@WinifredAtwellsOtherPiano I don't think we've ever had 17, but a lot of our students do a lot of GCSEs. Entirely optional 'extras' offered as extra curricular options (Astronomy, Geology, PE and Spanish - never knew a student do all of them though).
@user1497480444's misapprehension on what we were saying has already been noted. But I will just echo again what others have said. IF what User says is happening in her school is happening then she is complicit.
Cheating is detected every year and dealt with. In my last school we caught a student cheating on his Lit coursework. He was no longer able to do Lit with any board and had to switch to a 100% exam Lang course (this was a decade ago). His parents had to pay for tutors to teach him as it wasn't what we taught. He was allowed to stay for his exams but not remain for 6th form. He was very lucky that the boards let him sit any exams.
Cheating is reported in schools. We don't sweep things under the carpet.
User is bringing our entire profession into disrepute and I'm getting sick of it. Don't moan on here if your school is crap and you're not doing anything about it and don't think we're all as jaded as you. We're not. Some of us still care.

the education system needs bringing into disrepute. It is corrupt and rotten to the absolute core. I sincerely hope most people realise it, too

It isn't. Aspects of it may be (the SPaG marking for instance), but what you are going on about does NOT reflect reality in anyway.

To be fair, doctor, user's experience - or her interpretation of her experience - in the microcosm of her current school, may be reality.

Her interpretation of that reality - for example seeing children arriving without SATs being given low 'entry' points internally and assuming that these are the 'real' baseline from which Progress8 is calculated, or see the sharing of standard marking criteria and believing that this is in some way 'illegal sharing of answers, or see entry for a variety of qualifications and interpreting it as 'cheating' when it is done so that all children leave with something showing what they can do, rather than a very low grade in an academic exam being the only option available to the less able - seems to me to be flawed.

Her assumption that what she sees and interprets in her school is what happens absolutely everywhere, combined with her faulty interpretation of what she sees - that's where she is way off beam.

I don't know about Progress 8 but I have been into Ofsted Outstanding schools as an observer (in preparation for taking a pgce) and have been utterly appalled by the poor quality of teaching. I now place no trust at all in ofsted ratings.

Scissormister,

The question is, how old was the Outstanding rating? As schools which are rated Outstanding are seldom, if ever, reinspected, it is probably the least reliable of the Ofsted grades unless obtained within the past 2 years (in which case it was measured on relatively recent criteria and therefore is more likely to be 'real')

So I would trust the SM judgement of the OP's school, as it is recent - as in, I would expect it to be a Grade 3-4 school, and worse than an Grade 2 or 1 school inspected recently against the same criteria.

I would not trust an Ofsted Outstanding inspection report from 10 years ago.

[I have been into lessons in an outstanding secondary, one of the most highly selective schools in the country, and been utterly appalled by the quality of the teaching, so I do know it can happen... ]

for example seeing children arriving without SATs being given low 'entry' points internally and assuming that these are the 'real' baseline from which Progress8 is calculated,

I have seen SATS results faked for students who have not taken SATS in at least 4 schools

see the sharing of standard marking criteria and believing that this is in some way 'illegal sharing of answers,

I have seen children doing GCSE controlled assessments with the mark scheme in front of them. I have seen the mark scheme being written out in more child friendly language and printed out and given to candidates who might struggle to understand the exam board original.

I have seen this in three schools in the last three years, and I have heard of it from friends and colleagues in at least a further 10.

see entry for a variety of qualifications and interpreting it as 'cheating' when it is done so that all children leave with something showing what they can do, rather than a very low grade in an academic exam being the only option available to the less able

I have seen children copying each other in the actual real GCSE exam, I have seen one child log onto the internet during a GCSE exam, and have heard of 40-50 others doing so, mostly in my current school, but also in other schools, when I have asked. At least 3 or 4 other local schools. I have seen scribes make up their own answers, and other support staff acting as invigilators dictate answers to candidates.

where am I "off beam" in calling these things cheating?

A few selected quotes from a times educational supplement thread on cheating; there are many threads on cheating, and they all say similar.

community.tes.com/threads/is-there-any-room-in-teaching-for-an-honest-man.758828/page-2

"Controlled" assessments are not controlled any more. Teachers cheat on them. This is normal daily practice in most schools. Sticking by the rules just leads to the "data going down" scenario and almost certainly capability.

I will not cheat. That is my red line. So like many others, I am calling it a day.I am leaving teaching. I do not see that I have a choice.

The system is corrupt and, what is far worse, it is deeply corrupting. Coursework had been widely abused and some staff turned a blind eye to work that was obviously not done by the candidates themselves.Exams have always been high stakes for candidates, but once target setting and the myth of rigid measurements of expected progress became all -important, the insidious cheating epidemic started becoming widespread amongst teachers. And I can't say I blame them.

The whole system bears down on teachers at every level and compromises their scruples.

staff providing idiot-proof templates or dictating notes.

Meanwhile, SLTs spent all their time gaming the system. I remember a deputy Head telling me to cast aside my moral scruples , telling me that few schools adhere to controlled assessment guidelines.

Now, as an examiner, I am currently wading through 60 pieces of almost identical coursework from one centre, having just marked 80 odd lengthy efforts of A level standard, purportedly written in one hour, having marked another centre whose work consisted of chunks of Google .I have reported it but nothing will be done.

So don't do it. Whistleblow and walk. You are propping up a corrupt system.

It is difficult these days to find teachers who are unwilling to fudge things.

Amen to all the above. Whistleblowing, however worthy, does eventually lead to repossession of one's house.....

I've blown it! Must be a dog whistle as nobody can hear it!

It's a scandal but when I challenged it I was told that we all had to play the game.

In vocational subjects like BTEC it was rife. Whole classes just copying out stuff from text books, pre-prepared sheets or the internet. I was even told by a senior member of staff to 'pass' some pupils who had not been in for months as 'we'll get them in next week'. I refused.

This sounds familiar

Exam results are no longer about establishing a measure of student's ability but where you come in league tables and whether you can avoid a visit from our Ofsted friends.

Sadly, the profession is full of people who were either complicit in cheating or turned a blind eye to it.

Until all qualifications are based purely on exams taken under supervision by independent adjudicators then the schools who do it properly with zero cheating are at a serious disadvantage

Fully agree, completely corrupt

Young people learning that lying and cheating is just the norm and fine

I was a whistle-blower. I was put on gardening leave whilst the investigation took place....others teachers were witnesses. Yet I did compromise, signed a gagging clause, walked away after six months of hell, depressed. Was it worth it? No, sadly the cheating at that school continues
it made no differance.

They were more concerned with the pass rates than cheating

Like you I have been there, still got the scars to prove it. The root causes IME., are senior management hung up on financial pressures, some staff who cheat along with the students and BTEC not policing in a professional manner.

And perhaps the biggest problem surrounding the culture of cheating is those who work in education not wanting to be brave, stand up for what is right, and make full disclosure, to erm, mumsnet.

You can't fake SATs results as a school.

DfE calculates progress 8 from THEIR records of ACTUAL SATs results.

Yes, schools may use 'guessed' SATs results for internal progress monitoring, but it will make NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL to external progress measures, the ones that are used to create league tables et al.

All of your other remarks seem to apply to coursework. Which current GCSE specs, used by current Y11 and Y10 downwards, use coursework? So that information is out of date at best.

All of the others - well, you chose not to report it. In the schools i know of, such events have been reported promptly, dealt with severely (including this year) and simply don't recur.

Until all qualifications are based purely on exams taken under supervision by independent adjudicators then the schools who do it properly with zero cheating are at a serious disadvantage

Well, with a Y11 taking exams this year - all exams except 1 MFL were exactly like this. That MFL is moving to a new examination format very similar to the minority language DS did this year - almost all final exam, with a short unprepared oral exam with a fluent speaker - from next year.

So fro next year, with the exception of Art which will continue to have a portfolio-type element as well as final exam, i think you have your wish....

Goodness user14, I'm impressed you find time to be an examiner too.

I was an examiner for several years, & found it to be hugely valuable professional experience. I occasionally came across reasons to report, which if course I did. I fully agree with DoctorDonnaNoble that cheating is not to be countenanced.

These days I teach at an international school overseas. User14 might find herself, at least at first impression, at home here, as the prevailing culture is to produce coursework etc by any means possible; I know most of the tutors who will have a game stab at producing a gcse or IB submission, & our best defence against them is that their work is crap.

Part of my role is to run everything IB related through plagiarism software, & I've started doing this with everything from Y10 upwards.

Our students all have Turnitin log ins & can check their own work long before I sign it off, anyway.

I've taught for two decades. I've upheld professional standards throughout. It doesn't surprise me that there are 'colleagues' out there conniving at cheating practice, but I'd like to fully disassociate myself from the professional misconduct of User14 & reiterate that her posts not representative of good practice.

User are you external marking? Or internal?

I'm a maths teacher, we're 100% exam-based and have been for years. I can say with confidence that my department achieves its excellent results through hard slog. We're not even allowed in the exam hall.

I can see why there is pressure to cheat on coursework (and SATs in fact). It's total madness to have an incredibly high-stakes exam system where the outcome affects both the school and the teacher, then put the school and the teacher in charge of maintaining the integrity of the test/coursework. Teachers shouldn't be anywhere near the assessments that their livelihoods depend upon.

I don't think teachers will mourn the passing of coursework. Absolute bloody nightmare.

My last post was a list of quotes from other teachers, non of it was my words, I am not an examiner, and I do not believe for one moment that final exams are free of cheating. They are not.

The whole system is totally corrupt, across the board, and a lot of people realise it. Nothing I am saying is outrageous, shocking or a minority opinion.

MNers need to get their heads out of the sand on this one.

From my personal experience, and the experiences of others, whistle blowing has no affect what so ever. The only person likely to be prevented is the whistle blower.

if you actually want to do anything about this, then contact your MP.

Part of my role is to run everything IB related through plagiarism software, & I've started doing this with everything from Y10 upwards.

Plagarism detectors could be part of the solution.

I love them.

Unfortunately they are not popular with SMT because they are a) too expensive and b) too good at identifying plagiarism!

So any of you that can be bothered to contact their MPs, making it compulsory for all coursework, for all courses to be submitted through a plagiarism checker would go a long way towards giving back integrity to courses like BTEC

We're not even allowed in the exam hall

teachers are not allowed in the exam hall, but that doesn't prevent teaching, especially if the people who ARE allowed in the exam hall are support teachers who want their open charges to shine or bored teens who were in the exam hall themselves last year, and now are picking up a little bit of pocket money as an invigilator.

it is common for an individual working as a scribe to have their performance management ( or their friend's performance management) and pay progression dependent on how their candidates performs in the exam THEY are scribing/ reading for, etc.

sorry, auto correct - that doesn't prevent CHEATING - not teaching.

it happens with staff encouragement, it happens with staff collusion, and it happens because invigilators are disinterested, and don't bother to check for phones, or watch candidates.

It is absolutely rife

@user1497480444 seriously, stop this. It isn't. You said further down that you were leaving teaching I was under the impression that wasn't the case but there we go. Our profession is better off without someone who sees corruption and does nothing about it. Consoling herself that it happens everywhere it doesn't. I have only worked in schools which perform exceptionally well in league tables (although as a PP suggested not all our teachers are outstanding - I had to whistleblow on one). And yet, when coursework still existed checks were done to prevent plagiarism and it was dealt with where it arose.
You are clearly out of the loop when it comes to Progress 8. Secondary schools don't submit KS2 data. If there's no data that individual does not count. We also never made up SATS results for internal purposes. CAT scores (and entrance exam were used instead).

User, I do find it interesting that each time your statements are queried, you move your goalposts .. so when it is pointed out that very, very few GCSEs have coursework elements now, you narrow your 'field of assertion' to BTECs.

When it was pointed out that a) SATs cheating would actually move progress8 backwards, and b) that those entering without SATs are not included in the DfE's calculation, you didn't respond, but just made wider sweeping generalisations.

To look at some hard data - in schools which have unannounced invigilation inspections, in how many cases was malpractice e.g. pupils having phones with them uncovered by the inspectors?

If anyone wants to read what happens when malpractice is reported, and typical outcomes, a summary of a sample of reports, investigations and outcomes are at the bottom of this document:
www.jcq.org.uk/Download/exams-office/malpractice/suspected-malpractice-in-examinations-and-assessments-2016-17

It's really interesting, actually, what's picked up on and how. Coursework moderators flagging up identical phrases in coursework, coursework that matches the mark scheme, dodgy invigilation, all sorts. Teachers get barred from dealing with exams for a few years, exam centres have their licence withdrawn, kids are disqualified.

It would be a good idea for teachers like user to be out of the system.

Plagiarism software isn't expensive, User14.

My school has Turnitin because we teach IB, which requires several coursework components, written & oral, either marked or moderated externally. So of course all teaching staff have accounts.

I'm introducing use for all KS4 submissions, as much as anything to encourage a culture of intellectual honesty. There is an unfortunate culture among students & parents here that coming from a prominent family & hurling money at the problem should automatically result in top results. A large part of our job, which is essentially to prepare for top UK & USA universities, is to get across that 'Nope, you do actually need to put some work in guys'.

However, Turnitin isn't cheap - thus far you are correct - & may well not be a budget priority for UK state schools, considering both the shocking state of UK education spending & the phasing out of coursework.

There are LOTS of perfectly adequate free plagiarism checkers, though, which are fine for GCSE purposes. I recommend www.smallseotools.com , for example.

One of my sixth formers made money on the side by doing homework for American kids through some website. They'd post the questions, he'd write the answers and send them off, then they'd copy it out in their own handwriting (maths). 5 dollars a time I think.