Should we make a decision based purely on OFSTEDs?

[NemosKnickers]

My DS wants to go to the nearest comp (School A) which has been rated as 'requires Improvement' in 2016. This is because about 80% of his peers from school will also go there.

We applied for School B a bit further away which has an Outstanding Ofsted from 2009, but we didn't get in and so we'd accepted this and were going to make the most of School A.

However, I have now just heard that he has got a place from the waiting list for School B and I'm dreading telling him. He will be really devastated. He never wanted to go to School B.

I don't know anyone with kids at either school, I can't find any meaningful reviews online for either school and so I only have the Ofsteds and results to go off. School B gets better results across the different measurements.

I've looked at both school's websites and nothing is standing out to me as being obviously better than the other.

So, we have to just go with the school that's better on paper don't we?

Have I missed any other way of making this decision?

If you have a high achiever, you have particular reason to treat A-C% scores with caution. Boosting that score often becomes an exercise in dragging as many D grade students over the line as possible and hugely disproportionate teaching time and resources can be diverted to that end. Not helpful to a right child

I agree with this, some of you are placing far too much value on a set of numbers which are obtained by a method that renders them statistically invalid at best, and outright fraudulant at worst.

So we just had a conversation with DS about this and he's very upset.

Looking at the low/middle/high achiever results, it appears that School A do well for low achievers but less so for high achievers. School B is just edging out in front.

But then it's an ancient OFSTED for School B and a new head coming to School A could turn it around. GAH.

I note with interest that everyone seems more suspicious of the outstanding school than the RI one, which is curious!

there is a good reason for that, most people realise you have to more or less abandon prioritising education in order to prioritise ticking all the boxes that are needed to gain " outstanding"

Oh, and don't forget the RI school might inevitable struggle to recruit and retain staff.

all schools do, but "outstanding" schools probably more than others.

"Boosting that score often becomes an exercise in dragging as many D grade students over the line as possible and hugely disproportionate teaching time and resources can be diverted to that end"

This may have been true in the past, but hasn't been for several years.

From what you have described, I would 100% send him to the school of his choice.
The Ofsted rating of the other school is fairly old and the framework much more stringent these days. Ofsted are often interested in things which aren't of top importance to parents... The GCSE rates are the same for both schools...
If his friends who are going there are good kids- motivated, decent etc then that counts for a lot. Transition can be difficult so it helps to have some familiar pals around

Outstanding schools struggle to recruit and retain more than others??

User you don't half talk some tosh.

The outstanding schools near me (all5, 4 part of a trust of infant/junior and one senior ) are really really struggling to retain staff. Nearly all year 1 and 2 have left in one school.

Some outstanding schools (especially academies) are hell to work in.

Hell to work in is different from hell for your child to be a student in, though...

I think ALL schools struggle with recruitment but we are in cloud cuckoo land if we think an RI school will find it easier to recruit than an outstanding school.

Not sure how helpful this splitting hairs is to the OP... at the end of the day it's a straight choice between a school with an excellent track record and one which ahs fallen foul of Ofsted recently. If OP learns enough o think of that as a blip, or the school appears to be on the up again, it'll be a decent choice :but RI is a valid factor in parental choice.

Ofsted are interested in the same thing as parents : leadership and management, behaviour and safety and teaching and learning??

Under the framework the school in question was inspected , SMSC would also have been looked at quite intensely and more lessons would have been observed.

Don't get me wrong, I am no Ofsted fan but I feel we are casting doubts upon what is probably a fine local school.

Oh and, by the way, the schools that REALLY play games to improve results are the RI schools!!

The NAHT annual recruitment survey shows that the schools that reporting struggling to recruit the most are RI or Inadequate. As you'd expect.

Outstanding schools can recruit but may well not retain staff, which really does affect students. They can become super strict andntarhet driven too which I don't like. I'd certainly move mine away from the school they're in if I could and won't be using the secondary! I've worked in a different outstanding school which was ace but I really wouldn't rely on ofsted. Don't know many teacher/parents who would.

I used to be a teacher and ofsted really just means whatever the govt was assessing that year. it's rarely the same as what I'd look for.

But that's separate to these 2 schools. I'd go on visiting/what the child wants/distance ate as well as whether my child's ability group did well.

I wouldn't rush to a RI school either as a teacher.

Education is really a difficult area at the moment.

I lead an RI school; improved from special measures. No game playing here, just a really good understanding of how children learn and provision that matches, with lots of hard work and as a maintained school fantastic support from the LA.
Also struggle massively to recruit.

The thing is, the OP isn't just relying on Ofsted. She is looking at lots of performance data. Yes, data might not be entirely accurate, but if taken as part of the picture, it does allow for a fuller picture....which is all she is trying to do.
OP, the issue of how well the Hugh achievers are doing is really important, because at the end if the day, you want the school that will do best for YOUR son. SChool A might be the better one for him if he wee a low achiever....but he's not.

Ultimately, none of these measures give you 100% information. All parents have to make a choice given the incomplete information there is. The more OP can see the possible limits of data the better, but in the end she has to weight the different bits of info and reach a 'best fit' answer, not a scientifically proven and irrefutable correct answer. Visiting the schools and talking to parents is also a key part of the process. We cannot do that for her....all we can do is comment on the data she tells us about.
Given the limited info we have about her son and the data she has told us about, i would choose school B. I say this because the distance to B makes it perfectly viable. 25 mins walk is still a local school. The boy can join extra curricula stuff, see friends out of school and not be disadvantaged by the problems a long journey can bring....because this isn't a long journey - it can totally be done on foot. My view of this isn't based on the ofsted reports, but is based on the performance data. Clearly school As ofsted report is partly related to this performance data. School B may well no longer be outstanding, but that isn't really the issue...it's performance is better and in particular it is better for the kind of boy the OP has.
So, most kids go to the local, not quite so good school. Most parents have decided it's good enough and to go with the flow and understandably the kids want to do the same. Sometimes the job of parents is to go against the flow and recognise that it might just be better for their child. Because everyone else does it and it's 'good enough' for everyone else doesn't mean the Op has to. People seem to see this kind of thing as 'getting above yourself' and an offence to the local community. It isn't. OP is absolutely doing the right thing by thinking about this, digging into the data and talking about this with DS. She's asking the difficult questions which might lead to some tricky choices. I hope she gets a chance to have another visit to each in the coming week and to chat to some parents too and that it becomes clear in her own mind. But I really think she's moved on from just the ofsted report issue. The school performance data supports the idea that school B is performing better and performing better for able children. This broadly speaking backs up the better rating School B had several years ago, so their rank order if you like remains the same...which is presumably one of the reasons why OP went on the waiting list in the first place.
As far as I can see, there is very little to prevent OP choosing B over A, if after visiting she can see her son in B. Distance is a factor when long distances are involved, but they aren't here, so the better school for OPs son needs to be the key driver, surely.

Moved from an Outstanding School which was brutal to a RI school at primary - the difference was mind-blowing - a caring, nurturing accepting school that worked it's butt off to make all the kids feel good about themselves...a far cry from the outstanding school. Ofsted judged the old school 6 months after we left and despite numerous parents leaving awful online feedback, Ofsted commented how positive and supportive the parents were of the school.....parents were fuming. But everything shit about that school was easily hidden when someone was watching. I don't trust Ofsted, they know nothing!

Thanks all. Still chatting with DS about this, he's very tearful but he's listening.

Two children from his class are going to school B and he would want to be with them initially for settling in.

We've just gone through both curricula and School B does not appear to teach media studies of any description, whereas the RI school does (and the report says they do it very well). This is what DS currently has his heart on for a career, but I'm not entirely convinced you actually need a GCSE for this kind of career path.

We're going round in circles a bit now. I'm going to ring both schools for another look around tomorrow and take it from there. I'm encouraged that DS is actually engaging in the conversation about it though! Despite his distress.

Thank you so much guys you've been massively helpful.

One final thing - if your son is not happy at the outstanding school he will always blame you - teenage years are hard enough without you being to blame for every single bad day he has a school. Happy kids learn better.

Absolutely you don't need media studies for a career in media. In fact, people who are successful in the media are extremely unlikely to have media studies GCSE. It's really not the usual choice for an academic child to be honest.
I don't know your son and his abilities or his own aspirations or your aspirations for him. If he's bright and has the chance to go the academic route, the school not offering media studies might be seen as a positive not a negative.
It's good that he's listening. It's good that he knows some others going there. It's good that you are still gathering info and that you have this choice to make, I wish you all the best in reaching a decision.

Even if you're academic, you don't need all academic GCSEs. and Medi Studies is interesting, and more challenging than a lot of people think.

OP- have you got to the bottom of why School A is Requiring improvement, despite what look like OK results?

There are so many problems identified in the report!

Low expectations and teaching that doesn't challenge more able children
Disruptive behaviour
Children disengaged from learning
Poor homework compliance/checking
Teaching that doesn't take account of different abilities
Governors not holding school to account
Etc etc

YIKES

Nemos even if the group going to school A are well behaved and motivated now, they are less likely to be after a couple of years in a school with the problems listed in that Ofsted report. As suggested by PP look at sixth form size of both schools and relevant A level results as that will indicate whether brighter DCs stay and what they achieve in either school.
It sounds as though school A is likely to have spaces in the future. As a compromise I would suggest to your DS that if he gives School B a trial and after a couple of terms is unhappy then school A could be a fallback option.

Son and daughter both attended a local RI school. No churn of teachers, both did fantastically well in their GCSEs, really felt that the individual students mattered to the staff, school wasn't an exam factory - decisions that were in the best interests of the individual child and not the data etc.

School doesn't have a 6th form so we had to choose whether they would go to local college or 1 of the few school 6th forms. DD decided she would like to apply to another outstanding school and was accepted. She has just finished her A levels. What a stark contrast to her old RI school. Virtually every student had to have private tutors. The science dept is woeful. No student achieved higher than a C at AS and the majority were lower than a D. This amongst students who had achieved all A*s at GCSE, hence the rush for tutors. One tutor actually said that's how they maintain their outstanding status - most parents pay for tutors (it is in a very affluent middle class area and is a very high status school). They are a sponsored academy and have money to spend on facilities but give me the RI school any day. In my experience it is the staff at the RI school that are genuinely working to get every child the best education possible.

In my opinion you do not choose a school because it is good at teaching Media Studies!
Media Studies tends (not always, but on average, at least at DDs school) to be chosen by less academic children, as the more able ones are busy keeping their options open by doing more traditional, harder, subjects.
You might however discount a school which doesn't offer triple science or possibly because it doesn't offer 2 languages at GCSE.

You choose a school based on

• ethos
• progress for your type of child
• behaviour

etc.

I also think that at secondary the parent chooses the school not the 10/11 yo.

Additionally if you are going to insist that all your DC go to the same secondary, then you definitely don't let the eldest pick the school!

I tend to agree Teen.

I've asked on local FB groups and got a couple of pretty scary messages about pupil's violent behaviour at School A.

I think we can't justify sending him (and siblings) to a school with such problems when we have been given this opportunity for a better option. DS1 might manage OK in a rougher school, but I have to think about his siblings too and they are different personalities.

DS is very upset about it but we'll do what we can to help him with the transition.

Again, many many thanks for the help you lovely nest of vipers.