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Secondary education

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Original poster

Should we make a decision based purely on OFSTEDs?

126 replies

NemosKnickers · 02/07/2017 12:30

My DS wants to go to the nearest comp (School A) which has been rated as 'requires Improvement' in 2016. This is because about 80% of his peers from school will also go there.

We applied for School B a bit further away which has an Outstanding Ofsted from 2009, but we didn't get in and so we'd accepted this and were going to make the most of School A.

However, I have now just heard that he has got a place from the waiting list for School B and I'm dreading telling him. He will be really devastated. He never wanted to go to School B.

I don't know anyone with kids at either school, I can't find any meaningful reviews online for either school and so I only have the Ofsteds and results to go off. School B gets better results across the different measurements.

I've looked at both school's websites and nothing is standing out to me as being obviously better than the other.

So, we have to just go with the school that's better on paper don't we?

Have I missed any other way of making this decision?

OP posts:
Trampire · 02/07/2017 13:27

In your shoes OP, I would go to the nearest one that all your ds's peers are going to.

I only say this as the schools appear to be quite similar.

My dd (and I) chose a secondary that no-one from her primary peer group chose. Dd was up for a change. Our local comp is rated Good, has ok-ish results, has a swanky new building but I just found it uninspiring.
The school we chose is further away but rural (very wide catchment area do friends are scattered and everyone drives. She has local friends she can walk to but many of them are a short drive away). The school is rated Good, but has much better exam results, amazing drama and music, a stunning library and an Outstanding Sixth Form. I just preferred it really.

Dd's Y7 has been tough but she's made friends and is doing really well. She's just been offered to do a second language in Y8 (which the first school didn't offer).

user1487671808 · 02/07/2017 13:28

Our local school went from requires improvement to good with outstanding features to inadequate within the 4 years DD was there. We moved schools and she was much happier even though on paper they look similar now.

BobbinThreadbare123 · 02/07/2017 13:29

I was a teacher until last year. Ofsted is a big pile of shite. The decision is made before the inspectors step into the school, in many cases. Let your boy go to school A. Outstanding schools change on a dime and can be very stressful. The value added for both schools there is good. I think it's more important for a child to feel happy, safe and welcomed at school that worry about league tables (which are also a big pile of shite). Cheesy, I know!

Original poster
NemosKnickers · 02/07/2017 13:33

Progress 8 scores:

School A -0.02 (average -0.21 to 0.16)
School B 0.14 (average -0.02 to 0.3) above national average

Is that a useful indicator do you think? I don't understand!

OP posts:
Original poster
NemosKnickers · 02/07/2017 13:35

Half an hour ago I was reading the bad Ofsted and thinking it was a no brainer, he can't go to that school. But now...

OP posts:
Original poster
NemosKnickers · 02/07/2017 13:43

Where do I find the information about high/middle/low achievers please?

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 02/07/2017 13:48

Look in the league tables under "pupil population"............

ChocolateWombat · 02/07/2017 13:48

I would try to look at Ofsted reports over time. Those that RI sometimes are in that category as a blip, but often they slip in and out of RI, improving when extra resources are thrown at them and then declining again. Try to get a picture over a longer period of time.

I would be interested in the Attainment 8 figures too - these measure progress across 8 areas, where some core ones are double weighted. For a high attainer, this is important. For a high attainer, I would want to know what% of students are high attainers (this will be measuring the Yr 11 from last year that had L5 SAts when they came in at Yr 7. I would want to know there are plenty of high attainers for my high attaining son to work with and be grouped with and not just a tiny handful. You can see that info on the performance tables. Likewise, if you are interested in sociology economic background of kids, look at % of free school meals and pupil premium. These won't tell you if the school is doing well by these kids, but give an indication of the affluence of the area - which you probably know already.

Personally, if I was persuaded that school B was better, I would bite the bullet and tell DS that was where he was going. I feel that as parent, it is my job to choose what will probably be his place of ed for 7 years. Yes, it might cause friction now, but honestly, that is small fry in relation to 7 years. All kids are starting new in either school and will make new friends....being with his current ones feels like a huge deal now, but really won't be as significant over time. Don't let yourself be put off the right choice because of fear of confronting a stroppy 11 year old....if it is the right choice.

Can you draw us up a table for school A and B to show some of the key statistics such as Progress 8, Attainment 8, nos of high, middle, low attainers, average grades at A Level. You might also look at % entered for eBac and % gaining it to give an indication of how academic it is.
If your boy is clever, email the schools and ask what % sit separate sciences, take a language, stay on for A Levels.

user1497480444 · 02/07/2017 13:48

ask the school

Original poster
NemosKnickers · 02/07/2017 13:51

Thank you

Attainment 8

School A 48.8
School B 52.5

national average 49.9

OP posts:
ChocolateWombat · 02/07/2017 13:54

Don't just look at GCSEs, look at the 6th Form too. 6th Forms and what they offer make a big difference to the overall atmosphere of a school, the quality of teachers they attract and GCSEs offered too.
If your son is academic, you want to know he will get an academic curriculum and not be pushed into non academic subjects or face very limited choices. This is especially important if he is swayed by what friends are doing.

Are both schools really on 58% 5 A-C? Does anyone know if that could get Outstanding these days? What are the figures like over the last few years - is that a blip for School B.. I know Progress and Aattainment 8 are the thing now, but in terms of measuring over time, the old 5 A-C is still relevant for raw attainment and particularly for comparing performance over time, which the newer measures simply can't give info on yet.

Original poster
NemosKnickers · 02/07/2017 13:56

In our LEA the non-faith comps do not have 6th form. There is a central 6th form college.

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CauliflowerSqueeze · 02/07/2017 13:57

School B has better measures. But not by a massive amount. I wouldn't go on the specialisms. About 10 years ago schools could apply for "specialist status" in an area and were given extra funding to develop that area. That funding dried up about 6 years ago so now means nothing.

Personally I think your opinion should trump that of your son - you're the parent and you make the decisions. However, if he has his heart set on another school then this could be difficult.

Original poster
NemosKnickers · 02/07/2017 14:01

I totally agree that this is a decision we will make on his behalf, but I just want to know that I'm basing this decision on the best information possible!

He will make new friends whichever school he goes to. Speaking to their parents from his current school, some of whom are teachers, they are pleased that he is in a strong cohort of great kids and families that will all go to School A.

School A also has a new head starting in September...

OP posts:
ChocolateWombat · 02/07/2017 14:09

Is School B highly sought after? You've waited a good while to get a waiting list place. Is it in a more affluent area?

Might not be popular when I say this, but I would take note of this, as well as all of the other data. Yes, of course schools in less affluent areas can do a fab job form their starting points -no doubt about it. They can add huge value. At the end of the day though, I am interested in the outcomes for my child and have to judge what will be best for them. Clearly I don't know OPs son, but she says he is a high attainer and also that he is influenced by his peers. When all of the data is showing B is a better school, if not by a huge amount, IF B is also in a better area, I think I would be swayed by that too. Realise this might not be popular.
And YES to visiting both again. It's really important. You can request a visit, explaining you have this choice to make. Ask for a tour and go with a list of questions. You might take your son with you. Organise this on Monday so you can go later this week. Take time off work if needed to do it, so you can make your decision this week and if you go for B he can perhaps get to induction. Even if induction has already happened, don't decide it is too late to change because of that...it's not too late and whichever he goes to, he will be there at the start in September. And ask your friends if they know of others with kids at either school - it is really useful to speak to parents too. Time is short so you need to be really proactive, but time is available to gather the info and make the right decision. Think how much more info you already have just from asking Qs on here and looking at the performance tables.
Look out for behaviour at lesson change over times when the bell rings, in class etc. Establish what options ar offered at GCSE and what determines who gets offered triple science, 2 languages etc and how many take these. Ask how many go onto do A Levels at the colleges.

ChocolateWombat · 02/07/2017 14:13

If at the end of the day, the performance figures really show a very marginal difference and in terms of area, what the kids go onto after school etc, they really are very similar, then clearly go for the easier one.

You mention a 10 min bus ride or 25 min walk to the further one. For secondary school, these are still brilliant. Kids travel well over an hour by public transport to get to desirable schools and a 20 min walk is probably the usual. The fact he can still walk means B is still a very convenient option, so don't let that put you off. Also means friends made will still be very local and easy to get to, even if not all in your road.

Original poster
NemosKnickers · 02/07/2017 14:21

Womble, thank you so much for this advice, it's really helpful.

I've just figured out how to look by previous attainment and School B appear to do better for higher achievers. 92% achieving the English Bacc compared to 50%.

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 02/07/2017 14:28

The Ebacc is a bit of a red herring. I would just look at the A*-C for low, middle and high.

ChocolateWombat · 02/07/2017 14:34

It can be a red herring, but also can give an indication of how seriously a school takes the core academic subjects. 92% getting eBac is very very unusual. Are you sure that's right, as it doesn't seem to fit with 58* 5 A-C.

The more you look, the more you realise how many statistics there are and how much they can tell you, don't you. I think the amount if info available now is pretty good. And yes, of course it is possible to manipulate data and some things really matter whilst others don't.....but a bit of rummaging does allow you to build up a picture of a school, which if used with visits and speaking to people, gives an overall fuller picture.

Best of luck with the decision. Let us know what you decide and what swings it for you.

CauliflowerSqueeze · 02/07/2017 14:34

Nemos - ok have a look at the curriculum options they make for gcse. If languages is in an option block and they don't have to take it, this will massively affect the e-bacc figures.

Original poster
NemosKnickers · 02/07/2017 14:41

Sorry, that 92% was for the high achievers.

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SerfTerf · 02/07/2017 14:47

"Outstanding" would be put me off, if anything (with the exception of grammars who might manage to gain "outstanding" without discipline crackdowns, teaching to the test, neglecting pastoral care, sidelining SEN or even resisting SEN admissions etc etc).

I'd only use OFSTED for initial guidance and I'd be as worried about how a school made "outstanding" as a "requires improvement" rating.

ChocolateWombat · 02/07/2017 14:49

And what % are high achievers in each school?

cantkeepawayforever · 02/07/2017 14:52

What's the progress 8 for High attainers? And what % of the school population are they?

EBacc is a red herring. If the school does RE as a humanity, then EBacc can be low even though every pupil does actually have a humanity-like GCSE. RE / Philosophy & Ethics just isn't counted, for some reason, though the skills it teaches are similar.

SerfTerf · 02/07/2017 14:53

If you have a high achiever, you have particular reason to treat A-C% scores with caution. Boosting that score often becomes an exercise in dragging as many D grade students over the line as possible and hugely disproportionate teaching time and resources can be diverted to that end. Not helpful to a right child.

NC and post again naming the two schools in the thread title and appealing for insights. You'll probably get helpful pointers. Also wrack your brains for local sources of wisdom where you can pick brains.