When parents are slagging off the local comp...

[Everyoneafter3]

I've posted before about my concerns over the local secondary, which, thanks to comments on this board and an excellent recent Ofsted, are very much allayed. I had a very good read of school newsletters etc and am much happier. Dd1 (Y4) is musically gifted and will also audition for a specialist music school.

The area in which we live is very affluent: many children round here go to fee-paying independent schools. These dc are going to school and telling my dd (and others) that the local secondary is rubbish ("my mum and dad say..."). One particularly stupid parent has said at home that "no child of mind will set foot in x school" which of course is coming back home with our dd.

Dd1 has now got it into her head that the local school is terrible, that she's really upset to go to not a good school, that she wishes we weren't poor (we're not! But no, we can't afford independent school fees without having to sacrifice other stuff we prioritise as a family). She's been researching exam results and all sorts.

For our part we've said well look at any local school she'd like to, although as we live across the road from the school in question it'd be unlikely that she'd get in.

I'm heartily sick of parents telling their dc how awful the local school is. It's simply not fair. My dc won't receive a 'lesser' education. They aren't going to a 'rubbish' school. If this continues I'm tempted to speak to their current primary school tbh. What else can I do? I've told dd to not listen, we've looked at the school website, talked about results (!) but I'm at a loss.

Ontopofthesunset yes exactly that's what I meant earlier when I said lots of applicants for all sorts of competitive schools and unis are never in with a chance, hence numbers being misleading several times over.

Gloria - as we have all stated, pupils at HBS also have options. Lots - maybe even most - of HBS applicants will be weighing up places at SHHS, NLCS, Habs, and they choose HBS.

You're beyond reason.

Ontopof, I think you're saying that because some girls do poorly on the test, that somehow makes HBS less selective?

Do you know for a fact that there is no dramatic drop for independent schools too?!

Bobo - so that's a no, then.

If you're rich with access to great opportunities - you'll find it easier to get into Oxbridge.

Which is sad, but probably accurate.

Gloria - you clearly disagree with me on this, but if you go to the 11+ forums and look at the HBS threads, you'll see that many parents are weighing multiple offers - often HBS & NLCS, or HBS & SHHS. Lots choose HBS as their first choice.

I'm not sure why you find this so incredibly unlikely.

Is it really odd to think people will choose a free high attaining school rather than pay £15-£20k a year?!

On those forums one woman related how her son was one of only 3 state school pupils in a class of 30 at tiffin boys...the rest had come from private preps.

So - just one small point if we are talking about e.g. Oxford - DS's (private) school has a very specific ethos , which does not concentrate on specifically exam results. I have wasted the most huge amount of money if you think you would have paid to go to that school compared to the exam results you could get from many others. But - it has a way of thinking which I like. ( Well that's what I bought into so that's what I am going to believe come hell or high water - somewhat a joke. )

Alyosha - great wealth often (not always) goes hand in hand with great opportunities. Such is life. Should universities refuse to admit applicants who have a great deal to offer other students on the basis that their cultural capital is part of their inheritance?

Lala that's total bollocks. Lots of girls every year choose between HBS, NLCS, Habs, SHHS - just go on the forums where parents agonise over these things!

Lots of parents target HBS years in advance because they'd like to avoid paying fees...! Not just because they can't afford it.

There seems to be a bizarre desire to prove that schools like HBS are definitely "worse" in terms of intake than other local private schools...I think it's deeply weird that anyone could contort themselves into the intellectual knots required to say that 23 applicants per place isn't selective, and that parents don't want to pay £15k+ pa if they can afford it.

Bobo - ideally universities should realise that just having had a cool experience doesn't make you the intellectual better of someone who hasn't.

Alyosha all I meant when agreeing with Ontopofthe sunset was that all grammars and competitive independents will have a cluster of marks around the offer line and there will be a huge dropping off somewhere below that, amounting to lots of applications which were never in the frame.

Gloria you say yourself you don't know much about education in the UK and I can't see why you think Alyosha's point about multiple applications across the North London girls' schools is beyond reason, unless of course you've been seduced beyond reason yourself, by the glossy marketing of the independents.

Bobo I still think it funny that you laud cultural capital endlessly - and I give you, it's a very good thing, if accessible - but you still have a shocking record at getting your 'mentees' into Oxbridge, despite them oozing cultural capital from every pore!

^2) Teaching is just better, imparting more knowledge into pupils' brains which will give them an edge.
I dismiss this because if it can't be measured in any kind of systematic way^

This logic (or lack of it) would fail the Oxbridge style test of critical thinking, logic and scientific method.

'Teaching imparts knowledge' does not imply 'teaching is solely imparting knowledge'

Dismissing as not existing variables that you do not have the knowledge or tools to measure - Good thing scientific discovery has not been stalled by this attitude.

Alyosha - what is education but exposure (experience) and the opportunity to put that exposure in perspective? Why should an applicant who speaks six languages fluently by virtue of familial opportunity be less valuable than an applicant who barely holds a conversation in a language than his mother tongue? The child of a political journalist be less valued than someone who has watched TV alone?

goodbyestranger - I have no "mentees" nor is my "record" "shocking". I am not some sort of professional pusher!

Maybe universities are looking for potential rather than privilege BoboChic?

At 18 years old, students need to have an education as well as as brains in order to demonstrate potential.

Define education though BoboChic A useful 'familial' experience could just as well be caring for a disabled parent and learning to budget for food.

Bobo - you are merely assuming that all your examples are better, have more to add than:

a recent immigrant who speaks one of the less sexy languages
a carer for an adult parent
an 18 year old who has been working part time for 2 years to help their family

Your examples are sexier, but I'm not sure what exactly they add? All of the above examples are at a huge disadvantage for Oxbridge even if they get good a level results.

Sendsummer - so your answer to this conundrum is simply that every child who goes to an independent school (it's not just the top indies that are better with oxbridge) is just better, either because they are more able at critical thinking due to having wealthy parents, or because all independent teachers are for some reason better than grammar teachers. Despite the crossover between the sectors.

To get back to the original post, it's v rude of the other parents to talk like that in front of the DCs - I'd speak to them and ask them to stop it as its upsetting and worrying your DD.

A friend of mine moved to another town because she felt strongly that her Dcs must not go to the school mine went to (and have been very happy and done well there). But she certainly didn't let any of the DCs know that this was the reason (told me privately).

They have the right to do what they think best for their kids, but not to be nasty about everyone elses choice.

Caring for a parent, however socially valuable, is not the sort to of educational experience that top universities can leverage.

I don't believe in a language hierarchy, btw.

Is it really odd to think people will choose a free high attaining school rather than pay £15-£20k a year?!

Is it really odd to think that people will choose a school costing £15k per year when it offers a lots more than the high attaining but underfunded grammar school?

FYI of the DC at our selective private school rather few of the top children actually went in for the exams at the superselective state schools in the area. My DC didn't, as we didn't believe that the state grammar could offer them what they needed.

Of course HBS is very selective. I am merely pointing out that many of the applicants don't stand a chance, so the raw applicant number is not particularly informative. It is absolutely not the case that all girls who get in are in the top 1% of the ability range. And of course there are people who apply to Westminster or SPGS who don't stand a chance. And not all the pupils at those schools are in the top 1% by any means.

And of course the difference will be marginal at the top end because these very clever Oxbridge-applying students are all clever enough, but some just don't make the cut at interview or maybe don't make the offer.

It is unreasonable to dismiss the theory that there is such a thing as a better education because you don't know how to prove it. Perhaps the better A level results from a less strong intake (certainly according to you) or the Oxbridge admissions would be your first data points in such a study.

Caring for a parent is so much more than socially valuable. Oxbridge students who have less than stellar backgrounds regularly post blogs videos on how they managed to get admitted and their university experiences. As I understand things BoboChic none of your dc have studied at Oxbridge which if correct, blows your theory out of the water.

Apologies for using the wrong terminology Bobo but 'mentees' seems to be the rather curious term used on MN for people who help applicants with personal statements and general guidance on university applications which is what you've told us many times that you do, in exchange for handbags. So I pinched it. Happy to retract the term. I do say that your record is shocking though, as far as Oxbridge goes, because that's fair comment :)