When parents are slagging off the local comp...

[Everyoneafter3]

I've posted before about my concerns over the local secondary, which, thanks to comments on this board and an excellent recent Ofsted, are very much allayed. I had a very good read of school newsletters etc and am much happier. Dd1 (Y4) is musically gifted and will also audition for a specialist music school.

The area in which we live is very affluent: many children round here go to fee-paying independent schools. These dc are going to school and telling my dd (and others) that the local secondary is rubbish ("my mum and dad say..."). One particularly stupid parent has said at home that "no child of mind will set foot in x school" which of course is coming back home with our dd.

Dd1 has now got it into her head that the local school is terrible, that she's really upset to go to not a good school, that she wishes we weren't poor (we're not! But no, we can't afford independent school fees without having to sacrifice other stuff we prioritise as a family). She's been researching exam results and all sorts.

For our part we've said well look at any local school she'd like to, although as we live across the road from the school in question it'd be unlikely that she'd get in.

I'm heartily sick of parents telling their dc how awful the local school is. It's simply not fair. My dc won't receive a 'lesser' education. They aren't going to a 'rubbish' school. If this continues I'm tempted to speak to their current primary school tbh. What else can I do? I've told dd to not listen, we've looked at the school website, talked about results (!) but I'm at a loss.

Because what I'm hearing on this thread so far is "Independent school applicants are just better, and that's all there is to it."

I've brought up equivalent A-level grades - and then been told it's not just about good A levels, it's about stellar A levels.

So I brought up schools with almost identical A level results - and was told it's not all about stellar A levels.

Surely, Alyosha, you understand that good independent schools have resources to take students well beyond the A-level syllabus? And that, in addition, some independently educated DC are exposed to exceptionally enriching environments/activities?

That's not the impression you get reading their websites; their websites simply say good grades & enthusiasm are enough.

Disingenuous again.

Good grades and enthusiasm are what is required to apply with a reasonable chance of success. The courses are over-subscrubed, so it is clear that most people who apply will still be rejected, regardless of what type of school they come from.

As the websites and open days make very clear, prospective students should themselves read and explore beyond their A level studies in the subjects that interest them. This does not require tuition. This does not require money, in an era of resources on the internet. They should think about what they study, beyond the narrow confines of A level exams. Also free.

Haircut, I gather you're a W parent. Have you an idea of the the W girls and scholars Oxbridge acceptance rate?

User615...OK, so why are lots of very bright kids, motivated, academic, at some of the most elite schools in the country, certainly more selective even than Westminster/Eton, failing to get in?

They're clever
they've got great results
they're motivated
they have motivated parents

Bobo - what kind of incredibly enriching experience would favour you for a place at Oxbridge?

And why don't Oxbridge tell applicants the kind of exceptionally enriching activities they need to be undertaking in order to get a place.

Lastly user615, why do you always think I'm being disingenuous? Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they are being mendacious.

Because not all children get in because there are too many qualified applicants for the number of places? We have suggested lots of reasons why children from selective private schools might have a marginal advantage over children from grammar schools (and of course it is marginal because every year excellent candidates have a bad day at interview and don't make it) but you reject them all and say they're not true.

Taking UMS points, for instance, unless we could see the specific UMS points in the subjects for which individual candidates were accepted and rejected, we can't know whether that's a factor or not. Average UMS points aren't particularly helpful.

I pointed out that the extra A grades at, say, Westminster could be 74 children getting the extra A they needed to make their offer grades or 25 children getting straight A*. Obviously it will be somewhere in between but you dismissed those extra grades as immaterial.

You're the only one insisting that the selective London grammars are more selective than Westminster, for example. I don't think that's true; they are just selecting from a different group of candidates which is, as you would expect, larger as there are no financial barriers to entry.

You're the only person on the thread who appears to believe that the London grammars are taking only the top 1% of the ability range too.

User615...OK, so why are lots of very bright kids, motivated, academic, at some of the most elite schools in the country, certainly more selective even than Westminster/Eton, failing to get in?

Are you still basing 'selectivity' on the number of applicants per spot? By this measure, Latymer Upper, Emanuel, Kings and Harrodian are all more selective than Westminster.

I don't see why a larger pool of students to choose from would result in a lower standard of ability at grammars .

Too few perfectly capable applicants apply from top grammars and there is a massive disparity in resources between top grammars and top independents which has an effect not just in the sixth form but throughout the secondary years. That, coupled with grammar school applicants being regarded as uber privileged alongside applicants from top independents lead to a predictable result - fewer offers. As user615 confirmed, no outreach is targeted at grammars (although their school site might be chosen to host an outreach day targeted chiefly at non selective students in the area) and the attitude to HB students (as an example) was complacent to say the least. There was a nod to each application being treated on its merits however - up to a point....

I don't see why a larger pool of students to choose from would result in a lower standard of ability at grammars

No one has said that.

Ontopofthesunset its very widely acknowledged (by students at least) that at the margins far more top independent school kids bag the places than those from the state sector. Properly exceptional DC from both sectors should be fairly safe. You'll find that that's where the inequity lies.

Gloria if you read Ontopofthesunset's post para 4 it's strongly implied.

Good grades and enthusiasm are what is required to apply with a reasonable chance of success. The courses are over-subscrubed, so it is clear that most people who apply will still be rejected, regardless of what type of school they come from.

They look for academic intensity, a genuine depth of love for the proposed subject to be studied and truly inquiring minds. That is what I was told by someone who interviewed productive students. If it was 'good grades and enthusiasm' everyone would get in.

I pointed out that the extra A* grades at, say, Westminster

By 'extra' do you mean beyond 3 A-levels? Are the really exceptional Oxbridge candidates sitting 4 (or more?)?

Sorry for the dumb question, I'm not British and my oldest is only in year 9 so much of this remains a mystery to me.

Academic intensity? Sounds dreadful. I think you must have been talking to a particularly ghastly tutor.

What I mean is that I don't think that a larger pool to choose from automatically means that the schools are selecting better quality candidates. They are not the same pools of candidates.

GloriaGilbert has expanded on my point. Fewer people apply to Westminster than to Harrodian. Harrodian is therefore in one sense 'more selective' in that it selects fewer of the people who have applied, but it is not 'more selective' in terms of percentile of ability of the candidates who have applied and whom it accepts.

For all I know the grammars may be selecting better quality candidates. But you can't deduce that from the numbers applying.

There's plenty of crossover even if a lot of applications to grammars from those intending to go to big name independents are purely vanity applications.

I agree that the numbers are meaningless as a measure of academic ability/ potential.

By 'extra' I meant the percentage point difference between 56% A at Westminster and 40% A at HBS. I was demonstrating that if each of 150 students at Westminster (and I don't know how big the cohort is so that may be wrong) took 3 A levels (though some will take more) 16% more A would be over 70 more A grades in total. Some of those could have made the difference in the Oxbridge applications.

What I have dismissed so far and why...

1. Westminster gets better A level results ergo

Westminster does get better A level results, but not 3-4x better, so this alone cannot explain their high level of success.

If we ignore Westminster, schools like Forest have better Oxbridge success than some more selective grammars with better results.

So no, I don't think A level UMS differences explains the gap.

2. Teaching is just better, imparting more knowledge into pupils' brains which will give them an edge.

I dismiss this because if it can't be measured in any kind of systematic way (i.e. A level results), and the pupils are equally academic (as they will be in most elite Grammars), they're probably not all amazing bookworms at NLCS vs. HBS.

3. Parents at Independents are more ambitious.

I think you have to be pretty bloody ambitious to get a place at any type of grammar, especially an elite one, so I dismiss this one too.

Gloria, Ontop

The two factors to look at are applications & acceptances.

So HBS gets 23 applicants per place for 93 places. It usually reaches to no. 20 - 40 on its waiting list. So every one of those applicants is very keen for a place. And AFAIK it does not offer any more 93 firm places.

I imagine when Harrodian offers places it not only routinely offers more than the no. of places it has (perhaps double), it will also dip into its waiting list to fill the school.

So if Harrodian had 10 applicants for every place, but they offered twice as many places as they actually have, then that means they are less selective than HBS as it is easier to get a place.

Also...interesting reading:

www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/forum/11plus/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=49929&start=50

Parents choosing between HBS & NLCS. Talking about how much better NLCS is at getting girls into Oxbridge :D (with some differing views in there). Clearly well covered ground already!

That's not remotely comparable. Parents in the independent sector have options. Someone getting an offer from Harrodian might also have an offer from Ibstock or Emanuel, i.e. it's all much of a muchness, whereas the parents who can't afford private school and get an offer from HBS would have no comparable alternative. Right?

So it stands to reason that HBS would have a much higher acceptance rate, given the fact that we know that that parent body is less affluent (but overwhelmingly middle-class) than say, Harrodian or Westminster.

Likewise, boys who are offered a spot at W may have an offer at St. P's, KCS, Eton, Winchester, perhaps even Latymer - their parents will have geographical/sibling/boarding v day/sporting considerations to weigh. A sporty boy in particular might turn down W in favour of St. P's, despite St. P's lower Oxbridge acceptance rate.

The only way of measuring selectively is the quality of the topline rejected applicants, which is something that only the school itself, and possibly the schools that feed them, will know.

Alyosha

Just because intellectual development cannot be quantified and measured by A-levels does not mean it cannot (a) exist (b) be appreciated by admissions tutors.

My DP does admissions interviews for a French Grande Ecole - he's done them for 25 years so has a little experience 😉. Every round there are applicants with off-the-radar experiences and the ability to put those experiences and ideas into perspective. No exam can capture them.

Gloria - as we have all stated, pupils at HBS also have options. Lots - maybe even most - of HBS applicants will be weighing up places at SHHS, NLCS, Habs, and they choose HBS.

in any case, I'm sure not even Harrodian has 23 applicants for every place.

Bobo - does your husband not have a way to discern academic ability beyond experiences only open to the wealthiest?

Does the experience make them more able?

Is this ability innate or is it only cultivated when a pupil has been at a private school - any private school - for the past 7 years?

Alyosha - the French educational system is different and less financially divisive than the English system (it is, however, very socially divisive). What my DP encounters that impresses him are applicants who have a great depth and breadth of cultural perspective, and this is not something that their schools have supplied alone - there is inevitably a massive familial component.

For info. The data on this year has not yet been passed on by HBS but you'll see the massive range of attainment on the first test. Even past the first few hundred the scores drop massively. Not all those children had a chance.

I really can't spend any more of my time finding out information about HBS, even though it's quite interesting.

www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/anonymised_entrance_test_results_2?utm_campaign=alaveteli-experiments-87&utm_content=sidebar_similar_requests&utm_medium=link&utm_source=whatdotheyknow

Lots - maybe even most - of HBS applicants will be weighing up places at SHHS, NLCS, Habs, and they choose HBS.

You're talking more crap than ever, lots of HBS applicants have specifically targeted HBS for years in advance precisely because their parents couldn't afford these private schools. And equally a lot of parents at these private schools wouldn't dream of sending their dds to HBS