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DfE Data Cruncher predicts number of students who will get straight 9s

900 replies

noblegiraffe · 25/03/2017 21:12

His guess is.... 2

Not 2%,

2 kids in the whole country will get all 9s in their GCSEs.

So that's the new challenge for the MN boaster.

Ofqual reckon 0 kids will manage it. They clearly haven't met any MNetters' kids.

twitter.com/timleunig/status/845699774754017280

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CrowyMcCrowFace · 11/04/2017 12:10

Thanks for this thread noble.

English teacher abroad, doing 9-1 new spec IGCSEs & agree with everything you've said - it's a bugger's muddle.

There are undoubtedly teachers airily giving out 9-1 grades all over the world to keep parents happy. It'll be a slightly better guess than the kid or parent could award themselves, but that's about it.

To add to the fun, our parents are still fixated on A* etc, so I have to say '... I don't know. She'd almost certainly be an A in old money, so I'm guessing a 7, & she should aim for an 8, but frankly on the day it could be a 6'.

Naturally they look at me like HmmConfused.

Would be much easier (for me) to pronounce that' oh she's getting 8s'. It's just that it would be utter meaningless bollocks, as you have so patiently explained...

cantkeepawayforever · 11/04/2017 12:18

Agree with Danglingmod - I read more heavy-duty classics while i was at university than I have before or since. Even crunched my way both through Richardson's Clarissa and critical writings about it ... sadly my degree was nothing whatsoever to do with English, so I should probably have had my nose in a scientific paper instead.....

PiqueABoo · 11/04/2017 14:31

I just don't get it. If you know they're:

a) At the top of the curve.
b) Industrious, not lazy.
c) Enjoy the subject.
d) Unfailingly very good in every test they’ve done at the school.

Then why wouldn't you expect a grade 9? A couple of DD's Middling Comp subject departments have slapped target stickers on her exercise books and they are 9s. The relevant teachers strike me as sharp, intelligent people, unlike some of them in that school ($deity preserve me from a couple of the SLT). Sharp, intelligent English teacher doesn’t have stickers but without being asked volunteered an 8 and I like them too because that’s the right prediction given that item c isn’t entirely there.

At one point there was a wise phrase knocking around GP-world which was something like: “Look at the patient, not the data”. I think that’s a significant part of the problem here i.e. schools have become too immersed in the data and minutia of exam specs and performance for all those obvious reasons. The irony is that despite thinking predictions based on that are a crock now and were a crock before, people seem to be bound to it as the only way i.e. any other approach to expectations/predictions couldn’t possibly have merit. Perhaps in the middle of the curve where there’s not much difference in ability between so many, but for extremes, the extreme this thread is about, I don’t agree.

BertrandRussell · 11/04/2017 14:53

Well my ds is 3 of those things -and 4 if you include top of the curve in his school - but I don't have much idea how he fits into the cohort of year 11s. And not knowing how the 7s,8s and 9s are going to be split up %wise I don't see how, a few real outliers excepted, you can possibly know.

troutsprout · 11/04/2017 15:09

I don't see how you can expect a 9. Dd is pretty much all of those things. She is in a much improved state which has average results. I have no idea where she is nationally in her year group which surely I would need to know if I was going to expecting a 9 ?

titchy · 11/04/2017 15:10

The difficulty piqueaboo is knowing what grade = top of the curve - don't forget the curve in question is a national one, not the one at your school. Top of your school = what at St Pauls? What at Tiffin? What at CLC? They have to be top of all those curves too.

Look at the patient not the data - an admirable quality. Ofqual however aren't going to sit there with 250,000 student profiles in front of them matching grade to profile. They'll look at data.

BertrandRussell · 11/04/2017 15:19

Schools, in an ideal world, look at patient not data. But Ofqual, or whatever it's called, have to look at data. That's their job.

cantkeepawayforever · 11/04/2017 15:20

Pique,

I also think there is a difference between a target (aspirational, stretching, ambitious, a challenge to strive towards with an inbuilt expectation that it may well be out of reach) and a prediction (likely, best guess of actual result given all available information).

Depending on the context, and the mental robustness of the child concerned, I have much less concern about a child being given a TARGET of a 9 than a PREDICTION of a 9.

mousymary · 11/04/2017 15:21

So agree. Dd tells me, if she gets 50% in a test, "Well, that was better than anyone else in the class," and I'm, "No, dd, that is irrelevant. There will be lots of pupils in lots of schools getting 90%."

Thinking about ds, and how he did, I would say his A in Music was a grade 9. Some of his other As? Not so much. Probably 8s.

BertrandRussell · 11/04/2017 15:23

But anyway, it doesn't really matter except for a tiny minority of kids whether they get 7,8 or 9. It's all As, innit.

It's the ones lower down the tree who are facing potential problems.

tiggytape · 11/04/2017 15:26

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

cantkeepawayforever · 11/04/2017 15:30

DD, by the way, fits your a-d to a T. She may well have many 9s in her targets, if not a full set, when she moves into Y10.

We will not, in any way, assume that she will be one of the 2, or few hundreds (depending on who turns out to be more correct), who gets all 9s. It's just a signal that she did well in Y6, continues to do well in secondary, and should continue to strive hard towards top marks.

BasiliskStare · 12/04/2017 20:56

Bertrand and others I do see your point and I am sure that for many this is an unsettling year. My DS is older and I do not have either teacher or (current) parent experience. I would say though ( and who knows) DS did Pre Us ( A level equivalent ) and because of the marking , although it had a small take-up , not like new GCSEs ( i.e. country , state school wide ) , no-one expected to get a full hand of top marks, nor was disappointed not to do so . Now, that is A level not GCSE, and the C/D boundary is a very, very different thing at GCSE , I do understand that , but if the general thinking could end up being "no-one gets full marks in everything" - would that be good? ( I do speak here of the top end of achievement) . It is probably a flawed analogy . I apologise. And I understand that does not help those concerned with the current year. I say in reference to the OP which referenced level 9s.

PiqueABoo · 13/04/2017 16:23

I don't know, and I'm struggling to imagine, any parent with a child DD's age who doesn't understand: a) the usual caveats, b) that a random bunch of children in one class may not be representative of the entire nation. There may be some worst cases beyond my imagination, but it does make me make me wonder about motives for assuming I’m one of them.

Targets vs. expectations is a fair point. DD’s targets of 9 are also the expectations because she is an outlier in those few subjects. Expectations not assumptions, because of caveats. One of the more pleasant consequences of life-after-levels here is that some of her targets seems to have stopped being entrenched in that RWM APS plus two sub-levels per year nonsense. We’re getting more of what some experienced thinky teachers actually think, not what computer says or school wants in larger scale data for Ofsted. I rarely bother sitting down with a subject teacher at parents’ evening, but did last time to in part to find out whether those stickers were there for Ofsted: I’d seen a few HMIs talk about being able to predict a lot about the school based on looking at the top, including Wilshaw near the end of their time in office.

I’ll skip justifying why I think ‘outlier’, except to say there are a 1001+ things supporting that and amongst them we have a few disinterested people recognising one of their own, and often based on very little evidence. Consider those serious university interviews where you’re largely sized up via reactions to one question, or at least I was back in the day.

It will be interesting to see where the 9 thresholds land, because they won’t be useful for anything much if they’re too rare (see also: KS2 SATS L6 Reading). I haven’t looked into this, but if someone has, then given the published formula do they have the wriggle room to nudge it from a too small proportion towards e.g. 3-5%?

Pretend it will be 3%. My premise is that there is a high probability that for some given subject a top 2% kind of child by previous and other measures has a high probability of being in the top 3% for any exam you make up tomorrow. Yes it is possible to make exams where everyone fails or you could fail to teach them large tracts of the syllabus, but in a more reasonable real-world, I think this is largely how it works. Note I picked 2% simply because it sometimes turns up in other folk's serious discusssions on what to do with 'em.

no-one gets full marks in everything" - would that be good?

Yes, it's very good.

noblegiraffe · 13/04/2017 16:27

It's going to be top 3% for maths, top 2% for English, figures from a couple of days ago revealed.

No one knows what the percentages will actually be for other subjects yet (there have been some estimates made, but these estimates were wrong for maths and English) and probably won't until this time next year.

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tiggytape · 13/04/2017 17:43

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noblegiraffe · 13/04/2017 21:56

The first proposal of the top 20% of those getting a 7 gave about 4.2% for maths. Then they introduced the new tailored formula in September of a flat rate plus a percentage of the percentage of pupils getting a 7 or above which knocked it down to 3.7%.

However that analysis was based on the percentages of students achieving A or above in 2014. Using 2016 data which fixes the percentage of those getting a 7 or above at 20% for maths, Ofqual said a few days ago that it would be 3% getting a 9.

It keeps changing, and not in a good way!

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Shirleysomemistake · 13/04/2017 23:06

Hi Noble. Do you know the relative percentages expected to get an 8 this year vs the percentage who got an A* last year?

Just wondering how the 8 will be perceived - will it be a much bigger group than the old A* ?

noblegiraffe · 13/04/2017 23:24

The 8 will be set numerically halfway between the marks required for a 7 and a 9. So say you need 70% to get a 7 and 90% to get a 9, you'll need 80% to get an 8, regardless of what proportion of pupils fall between the boundaries.

From the modelling they've done it looks like an 8 will cover the top of the A grade as well as the bottom of the A grade so it will be easier to achieve than an A

DfE Data Cruncher predicts number of students who will get straight 9s
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HPFA · 14/04/2017 07:53

Will PGCE students be able to accurately assess a Grade 9?

www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-news/exam-boards-ask-students-and-nqts-mark-gcse-and-a-level-exam-papers

noblegiraffe · 14/04/2017 08:33

They won't be assessing who is a grade 9, they'll be awarding marks for answers according to the mark scheme. How many marks are needed for a grade 9 are decided afterwards by the exam board and Ofqual.

Will they be able to award marks accurately though? Probably not.
However they do need to be trained and go through a process of standardisation, and there is supposed to be some level of quality control.

English marking is notoriously unreliable already, this really won't help.

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Shirleysomemistake · 14/04/2017 09:40

Thanks for the info, noble.
I wish they had stuck with the original formula for grade 9.

When they had a choice about how to divide the marks, it seems to me the lesser of two evils would have been to make it exceptionally hard to get a top grade in Latin/Greek, taken by so few children relative to Maths.

It is a shame for the students that unless they are scoring full marks before they go into the exam, they have the sense that achieving the top grade would be as likely as winning the lottery.

Shirleysomemistake · 14/04/2017 09:42

on the other hand, they better stick to that formula now, so that the 2017 cohort don't always look worse than the ones that follow if they make it easier...

noblegiraffe · 22/04/2017 14:08

Well this is confusing:

Ofqual has just decided to abandon the idea of giving a comparable proportion of top grades to each subject at A-level; they were investigating the possibility of limiting As in subjects like Further Maths and Physics, so that the same proportion would get an A as in Drama.

But if they weren't happy with more people getting A*s in harder subjects at A-level, why did they rig the system to ensure that it happens at GCSE?

DfE Data Cruncher predicts number of students who will get straight 9s
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PiqueABoo · 24/04/2017 00:11

Hmm.. strictly speaking they said this consultation with four options was being done prior to establishing a position on it, but it looks like that position is: Blimey! Too difficult, so perhaps we won't bother.

Since DD is converging on the idea of double maths & physics, I'm quite pleased about that i.e. that she won't have to be ridiculously good at the most difficult and academically selective two of those to have a chance of getting a decent grade.

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