Tories shit all over the comprehensive system with a return to the 1950s and a nationwide 11+

[noblegiraffe]

That nice comp down the road that you had your eye on for your kid currently in primary?

BAM, now it's got an entrance exam and your kid is going to be bussed out to a secondary modern. We're staring down the barrel of a return to the two tier system across England.

Word on the street is that Theresa May, because she is a total fucking thoughtless idiot who doesn't have a clue about education and couldn't be arsed to read the Green Paper consultation responses from people who do, has kept in the imminent White Paper on grammar schools the option for current comprehensives to convert to grammar schools.

Heads will be preparing their applications to convert as we speak, because no school wants to miss the boat and become the secondary modern of the area.

Everyone with kids in primary should be very worried about this. Even if you think your kid should have a good shot at getting into the grammar, the test is unreliable.

www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-views/government-set-allow-existing-schools-convert-grammar-status-white

Incidentally the grammar ds2 attends is a superselective so has less of an impact on the surrounding schools than having a fully selective system. If the system was going to be changed in our area I'd rather the grammars were abolished than increased.

Even if you get rid of all grammar schools, there will still be selection: religion, paying for private schools.

At least grammar schools are secular

I don't live in a grammar school area and didn't when I was a child either so I have no experience of them. I don't understand what is wrong with the grammar system for children who are exceptionally bright. My child started year 7 this year, and was fortunate enough to get a scholarship to a good private school. We've realised how bored she has been at primary school. The school is giving her lots of extension work, her peers are mostly at her level and she has regained her love for learning. she is starting to question things again, an aspect of her personality that we haven't seen for years. I know all good state schools should provide this environment for every child no matter what their level but they don't.
I remember being at secondary school and having to pretend I didn't know answers to questions to prevent being teased. This did settle down as I got older and we were split into classes or Olevels, CSEs or BTECs (the more hands on subjects such as secretarial skills, childcare etc). Maybe the whole system needs an overhaul again.

A grammar school isn't really like a private school TBH troubleinsnowland.

I remember being at secondary school and having to pretend I didn't know answers to questions to prevent being teased.

A parent on the Gifted and Talented thread said that at her child' school they introduced a system whereby merits that children earned went towards a class reward rather than to the individual. Said it had transformed things for her kid, suddenly the rest of the class was begging him to answer hard questions because they all benefited.

I do wonder if we'd poured all our energy into finding brilliant solutions like this over the years to issues around the most able in comps we'd have found the solution long ago. Comp supporters can't discuss the issue because they will be drowned out by people screaming "bring back grammars" and grammar supporters have an interest in exaggerating the extent of the issue.

My youngest in the mixed ability school seems to rather like being thought of as clever. That wouldn't have happened in the grammar and it has boosted his confidence. In fact he recently said to me 'I didn't realise I was clever until I started here'. It's not always a problem - can benefit bright but non-genius children. His school has a very mixed social intake as well btw - he also gets called posh but seems quite happy about that as well!

I went to a Grammar and it was excellent. Yes I was distinctly average in a sea of very intelligent children, but it definitely lifted my game to the best I could be.

I have no idea if my children would pass an entrance exam to a Grammar but I'd be very pleased if they did.

HPFA, that sounds a great idea to stop the bright kids having to worry about being the know-it-alls. We also needs a system that allows the bright children to be stretched as well. Giving them an extra set of questions and calling it sideways extension just isn't enough.

Giving them an extra set of questions and calling it sideways extension just isn't enough.

Of course you know better than the experts who recommend enrichment over acceleration?

What percentage of kids do you think need this special treatment by the way? Who simply can't be dealt with within the school curriculum as it stands?

At least grammar schools are secular

Think again. I've heard of at least one Catholic grammar, and many are single sex so don't assume grammars won't have other restrictions on intake.

There are three girls Catholic grammar schools and at least one mixed grammar. The three girls Catholic Grammars are among the very best schools in the . My niece from my (brother went to one ) 'brilliant' school .
The act of criticism is based on nothing but 'envy' or more a case of everybody cant have it nobody should !

Faith schools play a crucial part in educating children about life but morals kindness and taking responsibility !

Even if you are not 'remotely' religious when you become an adult , the lessons learned help people become better people.

I also think this 'anti' faith school agenda is down to the fact , the 'left' have very little Hegemony against religion.

P.S i am not the slightest bit religious but would have given my right eye to have gone to my 'nieces' school.

Country

But they're not being dealt with are they.

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/405519/The_most_able_students_report_summary.pdf

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/408908/The_most_able_students_an_update_on_progress_since_June_2013.docx

Academically my DDs secular grammar is about equal to my nieces , but the 'overall' education they are receiving is 'inferior'.

HPFA, that sounds a great idea to stop the bright kids having to worry about being the know-it-alls.

Yes, when I read about it it seemed such a brilliant idea I wasn't sure why no-one else had ever thought of it. And also it stops the problem of some kids getting more merits than others. If they all get thrown in one pot then the one who gets the most is the hero instead of being the "goody-goody". Obviously, not going to solve all problems!! But seemed like it would help with a few of them.

Flyingwithwings - I live in Islington (or 'Islington' as you inexplicably refer to it as if it's a mythic place). I can tell you that there are already mutterings of the local academy being just the type of school to leap on the chance to improve their intake with selection. They've already introduced some spurious 'language aptitude' in y7 and y9 which seems to involve suspiciously grammar like entrance papers and they manage out the tricky kids very quickly or move them to an affiliated unit.

I like HPFA's very real examination of how it might work in Oxford and how unpopular it might be. Similarly I had a conversation with a parent whose child goes to above academy and she was talking about how happy she is with the school. We discussed how, if it were to go selective, it would screw her over. Suddenly she'd be faced with having to tutor her younger child in order to get into the nearest school (and one which the sibling already goes to) or face having to send second born to a school further away with the clever kids skimmed off.

If a different school in the borough were the one to opt to be selective, then the school she likes so much would no longer be a fully comprehensive school and she'd be faced with wondering whether she shouldn't be aiming for Islington's new grammar.

All hypothetical of course and hopefully unlikely but it does make one realise that it's not as simple as 'if parents want grammars then they should get them'. As posters have repeatedly pointed out, why do a few parents wanting grammars trump the majority wanting comprehensives. I repeat - there are no full comprehensives in grammar areas. I would also add that I don't feel there are full comprehensives in areas with faith schools. Certainly in London there are schools which take a disproportionate number of the trickier kids as some (e.g. the academy above) take the easier ones by having music aptitude, renting scams and Oratory-style faith barriers.

I imagine 'Dear leader' and Momentum would be able to prevent one opening !

Claireblunderwood

Exactly. This is what happened in the 80s when some authorities tried to introduce new grammar schools, most notable in Solihull. They failed not because leftie parents rose up everywhere but precisely because the conflicts of interest it generated could not be resolved. I posted this link on another thread which' although from 20 years ago highlights the exact issues which would apply today.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/time-to-bring-back-grammar-schools-1338364.html

Green, Flying Noble and I can debate the issues forever and probably will! But in real life who gets to say which of us wins? And do MPs want to be forced to take sides in that battle?

noblegiraffe Wed 22-Mar-17 10:08:51 "many are single sex"

I heard from my parents (and my mum is quite bitter as she was affected) that this was because on average girls did better in the 11+ so if the schools were mixed and the selection fair then they would be majority female and people didn't like that. The only answer was to have boy places and girl places. I wonder it this is still the case and what the government think is a fair answer.

There are more 'grammar' School places for girls than boys ! This is also not helped by the fact that many boy grammar schools have become mixed. Girls grammar schools by and large have remained girls only , with a few allowing boys in to the sixth form ! The take up of sixth form boys at girls 'grammars' though seems very low. There are always plenty of girls going the other way.

The no of 'boys' places at grammar schools is a problem in Kent Gloucestershire has a big problem because 'Sir Thomas Rich ' a boys grammar in Gloucester is to become mixed in the next 18 months !

This is going exacerbate the problem of boys getting places even if they pass the 11+ . The chestnut of girls not having places at grammar schools 30 years ago has flipped !

I would hope that in cases of sex selection the available places bear relation to the number of children of that sex that pass (at whatever grade is regarded as the threshold). If there are fewer places for boys because fewer boys that pass then that could be argued to be fair but if it is disproportionately fewer then that would certainly be unfair.

I can see a potential for big headaches at appeal cases however they do it though, unless the guidelines are crystal clear, and that's even without mentioning the much-debated 'T' word.

I still don't understand how there is money in the budget for this but there isn't enough to keep ongoing school funding in line with increasing costs though.

HPFA
Yes, the link you posted regarding Solihull mentions 'enraged' parents in Dorridge and Balsall Common both in catchment for Arden comprehensive school.

Balsall Common Junior School fsm 2.8% 2014
Dorridge Primary fsm less than 1% 2014

Arden fsm 2.5% 2014

OddBoots
"I still don't understand how there is money in the budget for this but there isn't enough to keep ongoing school funding in line with increasing costs though."

Because (please correct me if I have misunderstood) - the Government's annual spend on Education is approx. £85.2 billion. Cuts to school funding will apparently be £3 billion by 2020 and the Gov are only pledging £320 million (to add to a previous £500 m) for all new schools to be built and that includes money for grammar schools. A billion is one thousand million.

Indeed Clav and this is the point the article is making (there is a report on the Solihull case which you have to pay for so no point linking) -that it's fine to talk about issues of fairness in access to grammars v comps in wealthy areas, but where you actually try to introduce the "fair" grammar system it tends to unsurprisingly not be popular in areas with good comprehensives in wealthy areas.

Given that these will in many cases be Tory constituencies I'm hoping this is something their MPs will contemplate when the legislation comes before the House.