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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Original poster

Tories shit all over the comprehensive system with a return to the 1950s and a nationwide 11+

210 replies

noblegiraffe · 21/03/2017 20:33

That nice comp down the road that you had your eye on for your kid currently in primary?

BAM, now it's got an entrance exam and your kid is going to be bussed out to a secondary modern. We're staring down the barrel of a return to the two tier system across England.

Word on the street is that Theresa May, because she is a total fucking thoughtless idiot who doesn't have a clue about education and couldn't be arsed to read the Green Paper consultation responses from people who do, has kept in the imminent White Paper on grammar schools the option for current comprehensives to convert to grammar schools.

Heads will be preparing their applications to convert as we speak, because no school wants to miss the boat and become the secondary modern of the area.

Everyone with kids in primary should be very worried about this. Even if you think your kid should have a good shot at getting into the grammar, the test is unreliable.

www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-views/government-set-allow-existing-schools-convert-grammar-status-white

OP posts:
Original poster
noblegiraffe · 21/03/2017 22:31

Mumski the minute comps are allowed to convert, they will be fighting to become the local grammar. If they're the grammar they'll find it easier to recruit and retain staff, they'll be more likely to be Ofsted Outstanding and they'll probably have an easier cohort because the kids with major issues don't tend to be entered for/pass entrance exams.
The other schools will be seen as less desirable, more likely to have difficulties recruiting, may go into a downward spiral which ends in the head losing his job and special measures.

In an already competitive environment, hopes that schools won't compete on this are futile.

OP posts:
Ollycat · 21/03/2017 22:31

The problem with any discussion on Mumsnet re Grammars is that no one ever listens to people who actually have children in grammar schools or live in a wholly selective education system - Bucks have no comprehensives at all.

Personally I feel the comprehensive system is fairer then selecting at 11 but my children are in a truly amazing school (full of local children from the local primary schools).

The system is flawed but this kind of scare mongering is inaccurate and a bit silly!!

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 21/03/2017 22:34

Funny because I was talking recently to someone who lives in a two tier system (child in Y5) and she was saying what a fucking nightmare the whole thing is and if she'd known of the stress and hassle it would cause, she would never have moved there.

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Mumski45 · 21/03/2017 22:35

Why all the scaremongering about secondary moderns. They would only arise in a fully selective system. In my LA the system seems to work well in that the grammars exist as an option for those that feel it is a good fit for their child and the local comps are also good. The existence of more grammars does not mean that other schools will become 'bad' schools if the system is properly funded at every level.

Ollycat · 21/03/2017 22:35

noblegiraffe as I said the system is flawed Hmm

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 21/03/2017 22:36

Oh, and why should we listen to people who have kids in grammar schools when the voice of those with kids in secondary moderns is more important as they form the vast majority?

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Original poster
noblegiraffe · 21/03/2017 22:37

They would only arise in a fully selective system

How do you propose stopping a return to a fully selective system with the conversion option on the table? I'm all ears.

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Ollycat · 21/03/2017 22:38

I do think saying it's a fucking nightmare is a bit over dramatic- there's a test in the sept of year 6 and that's it. A number of parents manage to generate a lot of stress and angst for themselves about it but honestly that is a problem with the parents.

Mumski45 · 21/03/2017 22:39

The comps in my area are in no way seen as less desirable. I don't get this assumption that more grammars in a voluntary selective system is bad for other schools. It doesn't happen like that in my LA.

Ollycat · 21/03/2017 22:41

If my children hadn't qualified they would have gone to the upper- it's a great v high achieving school and they would have done well there.

Any way this isn't debate it's hysterical shouting so I'll leave you to it Smile

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 21/03/2017 22:41

I don't get this assumption that more grammars in a voluntary selective system is bad for other schools.

It's not an assumption, the evidence is there.

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Mumski45 · 21/03/2017 22:42

I have not read any white or green papers but I don't believe that the rate of conversion will be unrestricted. That is a ludicrous suggestion. I have heard a 10% target discussed. The fully selective areas such as Bucks have up to 40% of places selective so they are not comparable.

Iamastonished · 21/03/2017 22:42

"The problem with any discussion on Mumsnet re Grammars is that no one ever listens to people who actually have children in grammar schools or live in a wholly selective education system "

I think that is because they are the winners. It would be interesting to hear from parents of children in secondary moderns/comprehensive schools in selective areas where their children either failed the 11+ or weren't entered for it.

"The existence of more grammars does not mean that other schools will become 'bad' schools if the system is properly funded at every level."

The key words here is "if they are properly funded at every level", which sadly no state school is these days.

littlebillie · 21/03/2017 22:43

Calm down we live in a grammar area and get fab results however the other school last are great too. The standards are higher and the kids at the local comp get lots of opportunities

Mumski45 · 21/03/2017 22:44

What evidence. Please can you direct me to your source as I am genuinely interested to analyse the data. I am still trying to form a balanced view on the issue but find it difficult when the existing systems vary so much around the country.

Mumski45 · 21/03/2017 22:45

Grammar schools are currently no better funded than any other state school. The whole system needs more investment.

Rickandmorty · 21/03/2017 22:45

I work in a secondary modern in a grammar school area. It is not good at all. The top are creamed off.

MycatsaPirate · 21/03/2017 22:46

Funding for state comps has been utterly slashed to the bone this year.

However, funding for grammars and free schools has been increased.

There are secondary's in this area facing £300k cuts. £300k!! How the fuck are they meant to find that amount of money to cut when they are the main school for miles and kids are bussed in from outlying areas? There are nearly 2000 pupils in the school and they face having to cut staff and/or subjects.

But if your child goes to a grammar school then it's all fine.

My DD could have taken the 11 plus but I chose not to as she has ASD and wouldn't cope under that kind of pressure. However, she's exceptionally bright and aced her mock SATS (year 6). She is performing very well for her age and in top groups for every subject. So now I find myself wondering where the hell I send her to school after year 8 because I have no idea what state the high schools will be in by then.

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 21/03/2017 22:49

I see Olly, so your choice was good therefore grammars are good, and those who have a poor secondary modern (nearly a quarter require improvement or are in special measures) are simply hysterical?

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Mumski45 · 21/03/2017 22:49

It's not the case that funding for all grammars has been increased. Our local grammar is having funding cut and is asking for voluntary contributions from parents and can no longer afford to buy text books for the sixth form students.

flyingwithwings · 21/03/2017 22:50

Well put across 'Olly Cat' .

I suggested on another thread , that the selective option will only be available if the local market 'desires' for it . I don't for instance see one opening up in 'Islington' no market for a grammar school.

I think there is mass 'hysteria' bordering on madness !

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 21/03/2017 22:53

Secondary moderns find it harder to recruit teachers:
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-news/exclusive-secondary-moderns-sharp-end-recruitment-crisis-new-analysis%3Famp "expanding the selective system would "polarise" teacher shortages"

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Ollycat · 21/03/2017 22:55

noblegiraffe sigh that's not what I said.

  1. I said the comprehensive system was my preference.
  2. Yes some Uppers require improvement but so do some comprehensives - it is ridiculously simplistic to say that the presence of grammars means schools are in special measures. All schools should be good.

If you read my post I said this thread was hysterical shouting not that people wanting a good school were.

Gileswithachainsaw · 21/03/2017 23:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Mumski45 · 21/03/2017 23:03

But there is no proposal to return to a grammar/ secondary modern system.

My understanding is that the target is for 10% of places to be selective not 35-45% as currently exists in areas with secondary moderns and there will be no compulsion to take the 11+.

To me this sounds more like my LA which has a small number of grammar places together with lots of good comps which still get excellent results. The system is unfair as many people in the south of our LA do not have access to any grammar school as they are not near enough to travel. Just one or two more in this LA would not result in any 'secondary moderns' and would bring the overall no of selective places closer to 10%.