City of London Girls full and withdrawing offers - anyone heard similar and advice?

[NL2016]

Admissions office of the City of London Girls school is now saying that they have had the target number of girls confirming acceptance and are downgrading firm offers to those who have not yet accepted back to the waiting list, all before 6 March deadline!!! any one heard anything and any advice how to handle this situation is appreciated!

It's not good practice is it? I suspect it's about lack of physical space on that site. They also came out of the consortium to reduce applicant numbers.

No, there is no requirement to have a cooling-off period (this is not distance selling, nor the result of cold calling, and is a pretty lengthy period (with T&C's all available) before you sign up). If some schools have them, it is because that is how they choose to run their admissions, not because they need to have it.

Also I think it's stretching it to say that 'most' schools co-ordinate their dates. Yes there are clumps which always do (eg the Dulwich foundation schools) but others really don't and there are examples of jarring clashes (with each other, or with state school offer day) every single year.

I think it's about them wanting everything and everything on their own terms.
To reduce applicant numbers they could have a closing date or total amount of applicants after which they won't accept any more. But they don't do that because there might be some excellent candidates in the later applications.
They could make fewer offers to avoid the risk of needing a bulge class, and run a waiting list, as most places do. But they don't do that because they worry they won't fill up fully from lower offers and that those on the waiting list might have gone elsewhere by the acceptance deadline, or be of lower quality.
This is a practice which is competitive against other schools and disrespectful towards the customers - you could call it a restrictive practice, because it removes real choice from parents. Parents are having to make decisions before they are in receipt of all the information - they can't possibly know about the state school offers they might receive.
Yes, they like many London schools don't have much space and a bulge class is a nightmare...but that's true for very many others too and they manage to make offers and fill up without resorting to this hideous practice.
I should think the school are having to have a serious look at this practice. The fact they have exploded offers before the offer holders open day will probably seem unfortunate even to them...and rather hard to market for next year. Perhaps the high level of acceptance can give them the confidence they need for next year to abandon this policy - to make reasonable numbers of offers,not run a waiting list and if they really want, to bring the deadline forward....but at least stick to it. If people know they won't be able to wait for State school offers day, then fair enough (although annoying...and because most schools manage to allow the parents the chance to see those offers too before closing acceptances, you'd think they could too) but the deadline should be the deadline and those holding offers should be given the courtesy of being allowed to accept them until the deadline.

@chocolatewombat did you receive the t's&c's? If you read it, Yes there is a 14 day cooling off period as there is with every contract whether school contract or not. I disagree with your analysis of who might accept the places. I truly think everyone who was offered a place after jumping through all of the hoops set not only deserved the place but is more than qualified to attend. I think it's unfair to assume that CLSG is somehow not getting the 'best' (whatever that is) by asking those who wanted the school as a first choice to accept. Maybe everyone who accepted just wanted the school? I know I did and so did at least two others. I wanted an academic, non sport-mad school with an excellent music department easy to get to. CLSG fits that bill and I have released two other scholarships at other schools to take the place. If you read the London indie thread, some who sat CLGS accepted SPGS already so you have to assume that those places are now free. With 750 applicants and 75 places you would assume that might be a possibility? As in Grammars, there may be 2 decimal places separating the girls - we just don't know. I still maintain the nub of the issue is those parents who are holding 5/6/7 offers across all of London and beyond that cause some of the issue that the schools are trying to eliminate. As already stated, they cannot physically provide a bulge class so I guess they are doing what I think is right. If they hadn't been so up front with everything i would agree with the sentiment expressed here, but they were very explicit and were by far the most efficient admissions department I dealt with in the process'.

@cdstanding - I'm glad you got through to admissions today. I was looking forward to meeting you at City next week and hopefully that will be the case soon. Best of luck if you choose another school for your DD. I think this has caught everyone by surprise - including me!

Prada, I think you probably misunderstood me. Yes of course all the girls who received offers deserve them and are high achievers. I have nothing against those who accepted early because it was their top choice or those who felt pressured into accepting sooner than they were ready. What Indo know is that all schools rank the students they offer to. They hope that those who accept will be those who are higher up the rank order because that makes their intake more able. I know that all of the girls who have offers are able and will deliver great results for the school, but some will be exceptional, whilst others 'merely' very bright. So, when I spoke of the school perhaps ending up with the bottom of the list, I was simply referring to the very bright, as opposed to the exceptional - no offence intended to any of the girls, as all are clearly clever girls....just a recognition that there is still a rank order when offers are made and schools would like the cleverest in an ideal world.....hence scholarships.
I expect most people who accepted will go there and be very happy and it will be their top choice. It's a shame though if even a few felt panicked and pushed into accepting before they were ready, and a shame for people who may really want ant the state school offer if they then lose money due to this practice.
I agree that it's a good thing they have been upfront about the practice. People cannot say they weren't warned. However, as an unusual practice, it's still unpleasant and it's the lack of control parents feel and the fact they feel that control is removed from them, that it sup setting for people. Parents feel that if they are goi g to spend over £100k they should be given a chance to fully think and decide, whilst in receipt of all their offers, which for many includes state school offers.
I agree that parents holding lots of offers is a problem. I can see why parents hold their favoured independent until state school offers day, but not why they might hold 3 or 4 or more offers until that point. It is a problem. Would it help if independent schools didn't make their offers until much closer to state school offers day, making the whole window for acceptance much shorter?
Glad to see the 14 day cooling off period does exist there and everywhere. I thought it must. Does that mean people can get back their deposit fully?

And finally I'm not an exploded offer holder for City fortunately. I have received my offer for another school (just 1 independent) and am now waiting for state school offers day to make the final choice.

@chocolatewombat I'm glad we are friends again .

You can indeed get your deposit back I think but must fit the criteria explicitly stated. Having discussed this with my prep school head, she has seen this happen at more than one independent (and not super selective at that) with no notice.

I think what could sort the issue simply would be if primary schools agreed to write no more than 4 references for a child and then we would all return to some sort of normality... Some of these kids must be exhausted sitting so many not to mention trying to manage dates of call backs etc...I have a child who loves a test and sitting 2 London day and 2 boarding (our circumstances were likely to change this year thus maybe requiring boarding) really was at the limit!

• to be clear our prep head has seen 'exploding offers' with no notice not deposit return (much rarer!)

We probably need @prh47bridge for a lawyerly view on cooling off periods.

As parents and DC usually visit the school during the time leading up to the formation of the contract, it is likely that the formation of the contract will count as on-premises and therefore a cooling off period will not be required (though can still be offered if the school chooses so to do)

So what will they do if everyone offered next year accepts on the day?

This is what I wonder Chestnuts. What's the logical consequence to all this?

I would guess that they will make fewer offers next year.

I can't see how the formation of the contract is on premises at all on that analysis. I suspect schools offer a cooling off because they think they need to .

Personally i think it is outrageous practice. If they are so constrained by space that they physically cannot put on a bulge class they they shouldn't over offer and they should use the waitlist to fill the places

I agree. I've never heard of this happening before. Schools should honour the offer letter.

BUT I also think there are more general problems surrounding indie school applications resulting in some people holding onto multiple offers PLUS a state school place, leaving others in limbo.

This is just my view but I think indie applications should be similar to state school applications. There should be some central monitoring system in place. Apply to as many indies as you like but you rank them in preference order as in the state system. Schools liaise and ONE offer is made from your highest priority school. And put an end to this ridiculous system of some children holding multiple offers (mostly for schools they have no intention of going to anyway) and some children holding none.

That's a good idea Dancergirl. As long as the information about preference is concealed from the schools. Because who would offer if they knew in advance they were 3rd choice or worse. Would need to be coordinated by a central, seperate agency and the schools would need to sign up to this. That might be a problem.

I'd have really resented being forced to decide before Friday of this week

Why?? Indie schools hold plenty of open days or tours before the exams, plenty of time to decide which school would be your first preference. What about people who don't have the luxury of an indie option? They can't faff about trying to decide which state school is best for their child. Or do you think because you're paying for it you're entitled to take more time to make that decision?

As long as the information about preference is concealed from the schools

It is in the state sector chestnuts Schools know you have applied but not where you have placed them in the ranking. It can't be that difficult to do.

I agree with you dancer but I also empathise with making ones mind up at the last minute. Difficult to be too emotionally attached to a school when entry depends on passing tests and interviews. It was only after the process was over that we really felt invested.

No it shouldn't be difficult, only difference is the state schools are under local government control, the independents are, well...independent.

I do think that because people are paying they feel more entitled to have time to choose. Choice is one of the things they are paying to have.

I agree that the way things have moved is crazy. Putting kids in for 5+ schools, holding onto all offers until the last possible moment, schools having exploding waiting lists. All a bit mad.

The reality is though that this is a market. Schools are parents are in competition with each other for places. There probably are things which could be done to reduce all the hysteria but schools would have to be willing to do-operate and not feel they would lose out, and also not be seen to be colluding. Schools would also have to be confident that their paying customers would be happy.

I'm really curious about this 14 day cooling-off period. Has anyone actually had experience using it?

The contract I have in front of me states:
"Cancellation rights: If the offer of a place and its acceptance are both made entirely at distance by means of post, fax or electronic communication without either parent meeting face to face with a member of the School staff during the contractual process the Parents may cancel this agreement at any time within 14 days of the date of the Acceptance form."

I would read this to mean that you lose any distance-selling cancellation rights if you attend an open day between receiving the offer and accepting the offer. But you may lose these rights earlier in the process.

From the ISC website paragraph 3.6.1:
"The information which must be provided as pre-contract information depends on whether the contract is either: (i) a distance contract; (ii) an off-premises contract; or (iii) an on-premises contract. We expect that, where schools customarily meet the parents and/or interview or otherwise meet/assess the pupil (even if there are occasional exceptions where no face-to-face meeting happens), the contracts subsequently entered into are generally going to be 'on premises' contracts under the CCRs – but this may depend: see Farrer & Co note The School-Parent Contract: 'Distance Contracts' & Cancellation Rights…?"

This implies that ISC have legal advice that the 14 day cooling-off period doesn't apply in most cases of independent school acceptances.

Choice is one of the things they are paying to have

That is true chocolate but indies hold more open days and opportunities to see the school, plenty of time to ask yourself the question 'would this school suit my child if he/she were offered a place?'

Dancergirl, I agree that it would have been better for indies to have a similar system to state, where the preference order is fixed at time of application. However, what City have done is very different. I don't think anyone would recommend first come first served for state. They should just have made fewer offers in the first place.

Highgate have a similar term in their letters, but have avoided the City problem by making fewer offers and have used their waitlist both this year and last.

It is different stressed but if a system is adopted along the lines I have suggested, it would stop the need for indies trying to second guess how many places to offer and avoid this sort of problem in the first place.

Um. Not such a good idea if you are in need of bursary or scholarship money. How would you rank schools if you don't know how much they'll give you? Normally, the indie process runs quite well so please don't extrapolate from one bad actor that the system is rotten. The indies, even before the extended offer deadlines to cover state school offer day, were privately flexible about holding places without deposit.
Honestly, CLSG just messed up this year. If it gives a poor impression of the school -and hard to see how it wouldn't- future parents can factor that in to their decision making. On this, they have form. A few years ago, CLSG moved their 7+ to November which was probably an attempt to bag students early so they wouldn't bother with competitor schools' exams in January or get to pocket the deposit+terms fees if the parents got a better offer after January.

Dancergirl because I spent a long time making sure my child didn't have their heart set on one particular school until we saw what offers he got as I didn't want him to be crushed or disappointed. We didn't know where he would be going, state or private and I didn't want him to have his heart set on any one particular school which might not be obtainable. Same with the state options. Therefore it was only on the last Friday of the term that we knew what was actually a realistic option and I wanted half term to discuss the options with him out of the three offers he got (we had no idea if he'd get any), check travel options, find out which he preferred after deliberately not asking that question beforehand and keeping everything neutral, and go to the offer holder days AFTER HALF TERM for the FIRST LOOK at the schools that he might actually be able to go to as a known quantity rather than an abstract possibility. I have multiple children, a full-time job and was about to commit to spending hundreds of thousands of pounds of my hard earned cash so I can assure you, there was no "faffing around" involved!

Dancergirl - there are also people - not us, thankfully- who are waitlisted for their first preference and understandably wish to avoid committing the deposit until the last moment in case waitlist turns to offer. Again, City's approach favours those with spare cash.