New grammars by 2020 which will exclude 90% of local kids

[noblegiraffe]

What an excellent use of scarce public funding, to build schools that most kids can't access instead of using it to build good comprehensives to improve the life-chances of everyone.

Word from the government (who appear to be ploughing ahead with the proposals before they've even published the consultation results) is that new grammars will only take the top 10% rather than the top 25% of kids. God knows where they've got the evidence that the top 10% of kids require a different school but they're certainly not sharing it with us.

It is also beyond me how making grammar schools even more elite will help with the promised social mobility agenda, when previous discussions were about how the pass grade would be needed to be lowered to increase the number of disadvantaged kids gaining access.

And if you were in favour of a grammar school opening in your area because you thought your kid would get in, how sure are you now? How much less tempting is a grammar school opening up if your kid is more likely to be sent to the other school?

In addition, expect to see furious threads in the near future from parents whose local school of choice has converted to a grammar and their kid is now being bussed to another school in the MAT that they wouldn't have chosen for them.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-38906594

PiratePete
I do agree with what you say in that there are some bright kids who will never benefit from a grammar school as their parents won't seek out the best school or support a grammar school application. However there are a lot of children in the "middle classes" who can't afford private school or a house in the catchment area of a good comprehensive. These families do benefit and in an area like mine where there is only a few grammar places the impact on the comprehensives is negligible. I don't support a full grammar system but do think the system in my area works but could be fairer with a limited number of additional places.

I have no idea how we can help those whose parents don't support them but I don't think that other bright children from supportive but not well off families should not have options open to them on the basis that these families don't access them.

Like you I would not allow my own children to suffer due to an unfair system and l am happy for my DC to attend the grammar school 20+ miles away as I feel it is the best fit for his personality and he has little chance of getting into the best comprehensives that are nearer.

Dixiechickonhols - yes I am same LEA but a different town I think. The problem in this debate I think is that there are some areas which have a completely different system with a more marked difference between the grammar and comps and a culture within which most children take 11+ even if they can opt out. This system does seem to result in lower standard comps or secondary modern type schools and a consequent vicious circle of most kids being tutored to death avoid them. The key seems to be getting the balance right so that non grammar schools do not loose out.

I don't know if it's possible but a system which is opt in only and which is 'tutor proof' together with help with the cost of transport for those that really can't afford it would be best.

The current debate seems to assume that the government want to move to an all or nothing approach where every bright child is sent to grammar whether or not it is the best fit for them and the other schools will become secondary moderns. I don't think this is right and is not how it works in Lancashire.

Mumski45 as you are in the same area as Dixiechicks, do the existing Grammar Schools have empty places?

No there are no empty places. In the one my DS has a place at there are about 400 applications for 150 places. I don't know exact results as they are not published but I suspect about 100 go to in catchment boys who pass and the rest go OOC in order of score. I suspect that the applications are roughly 50:50 between in catchment and OOC. There is a limit on the
OOC area which is the which the school bus collects from.

No the Grammar near me has no empty places I'm aware of. Very popular school, hundreds there on open night. As I recall stats for 2016 entry were 150 places (previously 120) 450 ish sit exam. If you live in catchment and pass you get a place as less in catchment pass than places historically but could change especially with scale of new house building. Previously used to be 20 ish places left for ooc was highest ever 50 in 2016. A child from anywhere in country can sit for school but the out of catchment places go on score order. Many will pass and not get a place due to being ooc.

Mumski45 I only ask because the numbers given on the DfE performance tables seem odd:

Lancaster Royal Grammar School – 2016 GCSE Examined cohort 147 – currently offers 150 places & 47 boarding. A Level examined co-hort 165

Lancaster Girls' Grammar School - 2016 GCSE Examined cohort 113 – currently offers 145 places. A Level examined co-hort 165

Clitheroe Royal Grammar School - 2016 GCSE Examined cohort 118 – currently offers 150 places. A Level examined co-hort 314

Bacup and Rawtenstall Grammar School - 2016 GCSE Examined cohort 148 – currently offers 180 places. A Level examined co-hort 216

Where does the extra A level intake come from?

I posted without seeing above from mumski ! We are talking about different schools same county. Stats I found on 11 plus forum suggest About 50/50 in catchment out of catchment sitting. So in catchment 1 in 2 chance of a place, out of catchment 1 in 10 chance of a place. So no Grammar in deprived town takes one option away from the children in town.

The extra A level intake comes from all the local comprehensives, all the comprehensives stop at 16. 2 of the privates also stop at 16. Then you go to Grammar 6th form or college 6th form. 6th form Is in a totally separate building, different location.

Dixiechickonhols Thu 23-Feb-17 12:12:56 So no Grammar in deprived town takes one option away from the children in town.

Erm, no, it will only take away one option for those DCs who pass the test and qualify for a place in accordance to the admissions criteria.

So in catchment 1 in 2 chance of a place, out of catchment 1 in 10 chance of a place

I don't understand where you get the 1 in 10 chance of a place from. You stated that 2016 had 450 applicants. 50% are OOC applicants and 50 places went to OOC applicants in 2016. That isn't a 1 in 10 chance.

mumski I very much agree with your post 11.19. It is nothing like a full Grammar area. In catchment people only put child in if they think they have a good chance and it will suit. It's not super selective so 'top table' at primary and you have a decent chance. When child's other option is outstanding comp in beautiful countryside, great pass rates for gcse then Grammar 6th form there is a lot stress and pressure. When your only option is 90% pass or a requires improvement comp with 21% pass rate thing are a lot different.

Dixiechickonhols Thu 23-Feb-17 12:18:30 all the comprehensives stop at 16.

Really? These arer all within 3 miles of Lancaster Girls' Grammar School:

Ripley St Thomas Church of England Academy
Our Lady's Catholic College
Central Lancaster High School
Lancaster and Morecambe College
Morecambe Community High School

MumTrying herBest You can't disagree that a child living in deprived town has 1 less option than a child in grammar catchment 3 miles down the road. Just like if you are Muslim in deprived town you have one less option as you can't do the C of E church attendance move.

50 places ooc 2016 was unusual, usually 20 ish ooc. School has increased admissions from 120 to 150 due to massive housebuilding but new houses not all there yet. Traditionally 100 pass in catchment. Will be interested to see what 2017 entry stats are. So usually 200/250 ooc children sitting for 20 ish places so 1 in 10.

Oh i'm not in Lancaster. I'm near Clitheroe. Bowland High, Ribblesdale, St Augustines all stop at 16. Private Oakhill and Moorlands do too. All the schools in deprived town do too, no school 6th forms just college. Some will bus in from there.

You can't disagree that a child living in deprived town has 1 less option than a child in grammar catchment 3 miles down the road.

Yes I can, actually, and I do. A medium or low ability DC/a DC with SEN (with the odd exception)/a DC from a deprived family and/or unsupportive parents living in a grammar catchment will have less option than a high ability DC with a supportive family living in a deprived town with Grammar Schools 3 miles down the road.

I can also disagree on the basis that you stated 50 OOC DCs gained places so those Grammar Schools 3 miles away are evidently an option.

The Muslim family won't have more options unless their DC passes the test and meets the admissions criteria.

50 places ooc 2016 was unusual, usually 20 ish ooc.

unless they are going to reduce the intake for next year and/or the new houses are going to be filled with families with 10/11 year olds, I imagine it won't be massively different next year?

Dixiechickonhols I named four Grammar Schools. They all show an increase at 6th Form.

The grammar isn't 3 miles from deprived town just the edge of the catchment. I've explained at length why chances of passing Ooc are slim , many won't put their children through that. Yes low ability dc won't have the option but why deprive some. A girl I know passed last year, she didn't get a place ooc. She was Hindu so no faith option. Surely it should be about giving children maximum number of options.

Dixie,

I suppose the basic question is whether maximising choice is 'good' (essentially, the recent English model of education) or whether having minimal choice but aspiring to maintain all schools at a similar high standard is a better aspiration (essentially, the Scottish model of catchment schools is based around this philosophy).

Of course, in practice, neither 'pure' model quite works - in many parts of the country, there is no genuine choice of school, as most houses are realistically only within 1 school's effective catchment. Equally, schools in Scotland do vary in quality and placing requests are present as a mechanism for choosing between schools. As has been amply demonstrated many times on MN, the quality of a school - or perhaps best described as the perceived quality of a school - is strongly linked to the characteristics of its intake.

However, as an aspiration, is it genuinely better to maximise choice, or maximise the quality of a more limited choice?

Will be interested to see 2017 entry stats. New building is massive and in main family 4 bed homes. The houses fill with people with junior age children (need to be in new house by oct year 6) often from out of catchment moving into catchment. Not just for the grammar for the outstanding comps. Rumour at time of exam in September 2016 was no ooc spaces but I know a child going from ooc so untrue. I'm not overly familiar with bacup but same set up there most schools finish at 16 and you go to college or Grammar 6th form. I grew up in a fully comp area and all schools finished at 16 and you did A levels at college so the norm for me - I assume non typical for your area as It seems odd to you. There isn't a college in Clitheroe so grammar picks up a lot of the 6th form pupils in area.

Dixiechickonhols Thu 23-Feb-17 13:40:16 Surely it should be about giving children maximum number of options.

Whilst you may think it should be about giving more options to high ability DCs, I think it should really be about providing a better quality of education for all. I don’t for one minute believe setting up selective schools for the top 10% is the best way to go about it.

I also disagree that setting up a Grammar school won't make things worse. Perhaps you haven't seen all the posts about the cuts in school funding. Surely throwing X£m at a new school that makes no difference to the outcome of the DCs will make things worse because that will be money that could have been better spent elsewhere.

It might also be worth noting that Lancaster Girls' Grammar School has a below national average progress score at A Level so it doesn't appear to be getting the best out of the DCs who go there.

As for objecting to there not being enough choice for Muslim or Hindu families, perhaps the issue there is the faith criteria rather than the absence of a Grammar?

I've explained at length why chances of passing Ooc are slim

My DC had to score in the top 10% of an examined Cohort of 3,800 for their chosen school. That's despite living in an 11 plus area next to other 11 plus areas. Chances of gaining a Grammar place anywhere are slim.

Can't keep away that is a great post. I think whilst there are faith schools and all the unfairness associated with that and the catchments for the best comps largely governed by house prices then there cannot be your model 2. I suspect the deprived town i'm talking about will never get a grammar but instead have Islamic high schools trying to emulate the top of the league tables ones in similar town nearby. So selection in a different way. The children in the worse position at the moment are those with less choices, so unless all ways of selecting are abolished i'm still in the one more choice can't make things any worse camp.

MumTryingHerBest How can they provide a better quality education for all? Like I've said they have tried everything they can legally do. Throwing money at it with the super school 250 million initiative for one. The UTC (failed and closing). There is a superschool on the verge of closure (only 40 applied for it last year) so potentially a shiny new building spare. Faith selection certainly hinders better quality for all but they can't abolish it as the Govt has made it clear they are pro faith schools.
That isn't true in all grammar areas. 200 in catchment sitting for 100 places. Chances of a 'top table' child here going to the grammar from catchment is very high. They only need to score 70/75%.
I'm not familiar with Lancaster.

It's interesting, because Scotland essentially does have my model 2. I suspect you can't get BACK to model 2 after letting the genie of 'apparent choice' out of the bottle, but where the mindset and tradition IS model 2 it can work fine. The high stakes Ofsted system, league tables, rhetoric of 'choice' from the Government etc has led to an 'overall mindset' in England that is simply different from that in Scotland

It's a bit like the 'age of school start' issue. At least until very recently, the push in England was to get children into school, or school like environments earlier and earlier. The push in Scotland was to defer as much as possible to make your child one of the oldest in their class. 2 different mindsets, fuelled by 2 slightly different underlying systems.

MumTryingHerBest

I agree entirely with providing a better quality of education for all. There is no reason why good grammars can't co-exist with good comprehensives.

Setting up a new school isn't the only way to create more grammar school places. If existing schools could convert or have an element of selection then I don't see why it has to cost as much as a new school. Particularly in a place where there are sufficient places overall and a new school would result in empty seats. I do believe that good quality teaching must be easier for the teacher if the class is not so wide ranging in ability with specific adaptions having to be made for all styles of learning.

LRGS used to have 120 day places and 24 boarders in each of year 7-11. The also take an additional 50 into the sixth form. This increased last year to 150 day places and 24 boarders so the current numbers you quote for GCSE and 6th form are out of step with the current number of places for year 7. I think it is similar for Clitheroe except that they seem to have a much bigger sixth form.

I think the stats for a school in an 11+ area would be totally different as many more children will take the test. In Lancashire there is an element of "self selection" as most kids don't take it.

I'm a sharp elbowed MC mum. My kids did not go to the local comp
But they still went to a comp.
And as A/A* students I utterly believe they benefited from that mix.

Why didn't they go to the local comp?

Resources have never been aimed at the top 10%. Everything from early on gets pumped into those struggling. Those in the middle are catered for as that is what most is pitched at.

Opening a few grammars would hardly cause a funding inequality when those who struggle quite rightly are a priority. Starting selection in comps is no better. It would simply be the same system on the same site and similar to what already exists. The lower set kids never mixing with the top and in some areas setting pretty much guaranteed by which primary you attend with parents buying primary places through property.

Our local comp doesn't benefit the more able as stated by Ofsted. How is it ok for parents to bus their kids out to the better comp but not the grammar?