New grammars by 2020 which will exclude 90% of local kids

[noblegiraffe]

What an excellent use of scarce public funding, to build schools that most kids can't access instead of using it to build good comprehensives to improve the life-chances of everyone.

Word from the government (who appear to be ploughing ahead with the proposals before they've even published the consultation results) is that new grammars will only take the top 10% rather than the top 25% of kids. God knows where they've got the evidence that the top 10% of kids require a different school but they're certainly not sharing it with us.

It is also beyond me how making grammar schools even more elite will help with the promised social mobility agenda, when previous discussions were about how the pass grade would be needed to be lowered to increase the number of disadvantaged kids gaining access.

And if you were in favour of a grammar school opening in your area because you thought your kid would get in, how sure are you now? How much less tempting is a grammar school opening up if your kid is more likely to be sent to the other school?

In addition, expect to see furious threads in the near future from parents whose local school of choice has converted to a grammar and their kid is now being bussed to another school in the MAT that they wouldn't have chosen for them.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-38906594

FrayedHem Tue 21-Feb-17 19:08:51 I've just compared the notable pupils from my brother's grammar to my modern school.

How did you get the information?

Wikipedia

Wikipedia

What's the face for? Anyway brother's grsmnar school lists notable alumni on their website and it is the same as the wiki page. No notable alumni page for my old school on their website.

MumTryingHerBest A double decker bus full come from town to the grammar in the next catchment 13 miles away - all have passed out of catchment so very high scoring. Another bus goes to the other grammar south of the town 7 miles away. Year 6 sats in town are poor. A grammar taking 10% only needs to be taking 3 from each school (approx 50 primaries, yr 7 intake of 150). At the minute those '3' are not being educated in the town comps anyway.

There have been posts on other grammar threads about the 'best' secondary modern schools. Bowland High is one sometimes classified as a sec modern - ofsted outstanding and 79% A-C pass rate. It is a comp. The presence of one grammar does not make all the other schools moderns. The grammar has a small intake, big catchment and only fills about 2/3 of places from catchment children.

With even more of the top % being taken from your comp to go to the new grammar, it can only get worse and worse. Its 50% pass rate will go down dramatically. The kids left in this school will have even worse prospects than they do at the moment. Do those in favour of opening the new grammar accept that it might mean their kids will have to go to the new sec mod? You cannot have one without the other.

The problem is not grammar schools, it's the sec mods that they create.

Four it wouldn't because as the pupils for the new Grammar wouldn't be the kids from the local comps - they would be the kids currently bussed out of town to the ooc grammars, out of town c of e and those who previously would have moved. You can have many good/outstanding comps and 1 grammar, area where I live has just that.

Dixiechickonhols Tue 21-Feb-17 23:00:26 Year 6 sats in town are poor.

If the yr6 SATs results are poor, how are those DCs going to pass the 11 plus exam?

A grammar taking 10% only needs to be taking 3 from each school (approx 50 primaries, yr 7 intake of 150).

I think you will find it doesn't necessarily work that way. Where I am the top performing primaries send the highest number of DCs to the selective schools. The catchments for those primaries are small and the property prices inflated (wealthier, more invested families). Their intake tends to have very few low ability DCs. Selection pretty much starts at primary level although the selection is driven more by the parents than the school.

Just because Sats are poor overall doesn't mean there aren't enough bright children. Non super selective grammar, child needs to be at old level 5 standard start of yr6. New National curriculum with more emphasis on grammar etc means more content will have been covered in state school. At least 50 or more kids a year manage to pass highly enough for Ooc places at the Grammars in surrounding 3 areas. Many more pass but don't get a place as not catchment (anecdotally need 90% Ooc as opposed to 75% in) There aren't wealthier areas with tiny catchments. If you can afford to leave you do. The children with 'invested parents' simply leave town for secondary at the minute, they don't use the non religious comps.

Dixiechickonhols Wed 22-Feb-17 13:02:39 At least 50 or more kids a year manage to pass highly enough for Ooc places at the Grammars in surrounding 3 areas.

50 children will not be enough to fill a Grammar School. What's more a number of those parents will still opt for an established, proven school with visible exam results over a new school yet to get started. Even in well established Grammar areas, DCs still travel to Grammar Schools further away because they appear to produce better results or they feel they are a better fit for their DC.

As for there being enough bright children, what makes you think those bright children will want to attend a Grammar School? After all they aren't all trying to get into the Grammar Schools in surrounding areas surely? I know a number of bright children whose parents have opted for non selective schools outside the area. They just couldn't face going through the stress and expense of preparing their DCs for the 11 plus exam when there was a school they were happy with that didn't require it, particularly where they were facing going through the 11 plus process for a number of DCs.

There aren't wealthier areas with tiny catchments.

And you don't think that will change with the addition of a Grammar School?

What makes you think that the DCs in the surrounding 3 areas won't start targeting the new Grammar if they fail to get a place in their local one. That is exactly what happens where I am. It is becoming more and more common for DCs to sit the 11 plus in multiple areas in pursuit of a place at pretty much any Grammar School they can get into.

Mumtryingherbest, Dixiechickonhols said that 50 kids pass high enough for OOC places. There are probably another 100 that pass from within catchment and potentially another 50 that pass but are OOC and don't pass highly enough. There are also a lot of parents who will not put their children in for 11+ because they think that the school is too far away. I know in my area where there are only 4 Grammar schools in the LEA and non closer than 20miles away a new Grammar would be very soon oversubscribed. If there are more Grammar Schools overall then the "stress and expense" of having to get into one would be reduced surely as the places would not be quite so competitive. If bright children did not want to attend a Grammar School then why are the places that currently exist so oversubscribed?

Rather than focusing on the grammars - focus on the secondary moderns that the grammar schools create.... you cannot have one without the other. Nobody is campaigning to bring back secondary moderns.

Mumski

Tutoring is massive in Bucks and Kent which are fully selective counties where more grammar places are available. I don't approve of selection so certainly would not have tried to get DD into a superselective if one had been near us. But I would certainly have tutored her to try and get into a grammar in Bucks and Kent where my only other choice would have been a secondary modern.

I don't always think the desperation for grammars is rational. Someone once started a thread on Mumsnet because they were planning to move to Bucks. The mother was going to commute from there to Portsmouth EVERY DAY. Does anyone seriously think that there are no good comps between Portsmouth and High Wycombe and that anything at a Bucks grammar would compensate for a child having an exhausted mother who they would hardly see? I know someone planning to move her whole family to get a grammar place despite the fact that the local school where they are now actually gets better Progress 8 for High Achievers than the majority of Bucks grammars.

Rant over. Seriously, Mumsnet is pretty civilized and knowledgeable in terms of the grammar debate - out in the social media world you find people who genuinely believe that every comp is a cesspit, that talk about children at secondary moderns as if they're a lesser species, that abuse people if their own parents sent them to grammars. This is not being driven by anything rational.

Mumski45 If there are more Grammar Schools overall then the "stress and expense" of having to get into one would be reduced surely as the places would not be quite so competitive.

Doesn't that depend on how many new Grammar schools actually materialise, how densely populated the area is that the Grammar is located, logistical accessibility of the Grammar, the Ranking and prestige of the Grammar School, local alternatives, whether the new Grammars are in areas that will cross over with other existing Grammar catchments?

50 kids pass high enough for OOC places. There are probably another 100 that pass from within catchment and potentially another 50 that pass but are OOC and don't pass highly enough.

200 potential DCs for 120 - 180 places? I heavily suspect that with odds like that the new Grammar will get hammered by DCs in the surrounding areas. Even if it isn't their first choice it will present a nice fall back to their more local Grammar Schools.

I have to admit that I’m confused by Dixiechickonhols post that stated no private secondary and then claimed several small private secondary schools in nearby towns starting at £10,000 a year mark. However, I suspect those 200 bright DCs will also be competing with a number of these DCs too.

I disagree we have Grammars in our area but no secondary moderns. There are lots of very good comprehensives that I would be happy to send DC's to. However they are all either over subscribed and we are too far away or are faith based and we don't fit the criteria. Without access to a grammar DS1 would have been left with the worst performing school in our area or the only other option to go private which I can't afford. At least this way we have another option.

Mumski45 Wed 22-Feb-17 21:11:5 we have Grammars in our area but no secondary moderns... DS1 would have been left with the worst performing school in our area

Right, so any DC that can't get into the faith school or live a few hundred metres from the over subscribed schools will have to go to the "worst performing school in the area". How has the Grammar School enabled the high ability DCs at the "worst performing schools in the area to access a better qualify of education?"

Not sure I understand that question. Anyone can apply for the grammar school by taking the entrance test. I didn't say that the education quality wasn't good at the other school, just that the results are poor in comparison to the faith schools and the one which I am not in catchment for. The high ability kids at that school could have applied but their parents may have decided not to for a number of reasons one of which could be travel time. If there was another grammar school available locally then they would have another option.

I am an ex teacher and ofsted inspector. I can categorically say that grammar schools will not improve social mobility. A child from a deprived area with an unsettled home life does not have a hope in hell of getting into a grammar even if they were a genius. Children who have parents who support (some may say push) them, from middle class educated families are the ones that will take the majority of the places. The rest will go to poorer children who do have parents who aspire for me. All of these children would have done well in any school.

And I will confess to being a hypocrite. I will not sacrifice my child to stand up against a system that I think is unfair. He goes to a private prep, he will be tutored from year 3 and we are viewing grammar school as an escape from extortiate private secondary school fees. How is that a fair system?

I live and teach in Kent, so just bought I would clarify a couple of things.

Kent is opt in, despite being essentially a fully grammar county.

You don't get free transport to your nearest grammar if you pass, just nearest school (though I gather it can be hard to get that, for everyone).

Head teachers appeals happen before the results come out and are intended to solve any obvious anomalies, parents can still appeal later.

There are no comprehensive options, although our local modern is good.

East Kent is an area of social deprivation and the grammar schools there are less oversubscribed than those in West Kent. All grammars in Kent have lowish numbers of fsm. This is not surprising as if you are the kind of engaged parent who encourages your child to take an opt in test, you are more likely to be employable. Many grammars do have students with SEN, particularly HFA.

I am not a fan of the grammar system, despite the fact that as an academic child in a crappy comp myself I would have loved to go to one! My dc have gone to one though, and I genuinely think a proper comp would have been much better for them both- but not an option here.

MumTrying Her Best There is one 11 plus exam in Lancs and Skipton on same day no exam tourism like the south the child can only sit one. In catchment you need a 70/75% pass. There is no ranking - in catchment and a pass you have a place. Out of catchment they take the best scores so word on the street is you need to be 90% plus to stand chance. Last year school increased to 150 and took 100 from in catchment and 50 ooc. They are building family homes like crazy in catchment so next year may be only 20 ooc places so a child will need 95% etc. Yes a lot of bright kids in town don't currently sit for ooc grammar for many reasons, main one being child needs to be superselective standard to pass ooc. Plus time travelling, bus fares, parental knowledge to realise a child can sit ooc etc.
A grammar catchment covering the whole town will not create wealthier areas. It will simply give another option.

MumTryingHerBest Why are you confused by no private secondary in town but small number in nearby towns. There is no private secondary in town at all, why would I say that if not true. It is a deprived Lancashire town. What there are mini buses that bus children from town to 3? small private schools in nearby areas. They are used if parents don't want to move to better catchment, child didn't pass grammar ooc or didn't sit as not super selective academic and don't want to or can't use the C of E/RC get out of dire comprehensive card. Not many go for private as it is cheaper to simply move a couple of miles to next catchment where there is a grammar and a choice of good/outstanding comprehensives with decent pass rates.

Mumski I agree entirely with your 11.51 post it would simply give another option to the children in a deprived town. I'm not a massive grammar proponent simply they have tried everything else - 250 million super schools, UTC and been left with Require Improvement schools, schools no one wants and dire GCSE results. By leaving the town in the middle of 3 grammar school areas all that has happened is they have created this black hole. The busing kids out of town to secondary on a huge scale is ridiculous. The town is racically divided and the faith schools don't help with this. The muslim children (1/3 of town) and the children with parents who can't or wont pay the bus fares or can't or won't play the faith game are currently the ones without options. A grammar wont cure everything but as I said in my very first post on here I can't see how it will make things any worse and will at least give some children another option.

Four that is simply not true about sec modern. I live in an area with 1 grammar (suspect same county as Mumski) It now takes 100 children a year from a huge catchment area (rest from ooc). The other schools are good or outstanding comprehensives. People move here because of the good secondary schooling.

Dixiechickonhols Does the Grammar School have any empty places?