Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Original poster

New grammars by 2020 which will exclude 90% of local kids

518 replies

noblegiraffe · 09/02/2017 15:47

What an excellent use of scarce public funding, to build schools that most kids can't access Hmm instead of using it to build good comprehensives to improve the life-chances of everyone.

Word from the government (who appear to be ploughing ahead with the proposals before they've even published the consultation results) is that new grammars will only take the top 10% rather than the top 25% of kids. God knows where they've got the evidence that the top 10% of kids require a different school but they're certainly not sharing it with us.

It is also beyond me how making grammar schools even more elite will help with the promised social mobility agenda, when previous discussions were about how the pass grade would be needed to be lowered to increase the number of disadvantaged kids gaining access.

And if you were in favour of a grammar school opening in your area because you thought your kid would get in, how sure are you now? How much less tempting is a grammar school opening up if your kid is more likely to be sent to the other school?

In addition, expect to see furious threads in the near future from parents whose local school of choice has converted to a grammar and their kid is now being bussed to another school in the MAT that they wouldn't have chosen for them.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-38906594

OP posts:
Ollycat · 13/02/2017 16:13

cantkeepawayforever

honestly think it's nothing to do with postcodes- grammars and Uppers are in the same towns. It's just a money saving exercise so that they provide their minimum legal requirement.

My catchment upper and grammar are in the same town with essentially the same catchment area.

cantkeepawayforever · 13/02/2017 16:41

So in a town with the two schools right next to each other in the centre of town 9(for the sake of argument):

The half of the town over the minimum transport distance on the 'grammar school side' would get free transport to both schools.

The half of the town over the minimum transport distance on the 'secondary modern side' would only get transport to the secondary modern.

And those 'halves' protrude out into the surrounding countryside until they bump into the regions surrounding the next pair of schools??

Bizarre.

flyingwithwings · 13/02/2017 18:07

This is 'panorama' from 1977

Are Comprehensive Schools any better today

Senigallia · 13/02/2017 18:18

myfavourite Certainly not all the Kent grammars.

Tonbridge grammar school: Pupils eligible for free school meals at any time during the past 6 years is 2.9%

Hillview school for girls ('comprehensive' very close by): Pupils eligible for free school meals at any time during the past 6 years: 18.1%

HPFA · 13/02/2017 18:34

My partner actually has an audio recording of a lesson at his old grammar school in the 70s (recorded by sticking the microphone of a cassette player through an inkwell). The lesson is beyond appalling - supposed to be a French lesson but consists of the teacher droning on (in English naturally) about how awful the boys are and how they will all fail the exam - which in my partner's case turned out to be an accurate prediction.

Schools of all types were pretty much unregulated in the 70s and 80s and tolerated bad teaching in a way they wouldn't today. DD's comp is miles better than the grammar I went to but I imagine most grammars are a lot better than that too.

BertrandRussell · 13/02/2017 18:36

Near where I live in Kent, on the edge of an area of significant social deprivation, the grammar school has 1% Pupil Premium pupils, the secondary modern school a mile away has 37%. So unless you think that better off children are intrinsically cleverer than poorer ones........

flyingwithwings · 13/02/2017 21:02

At my Kent 'Modern' school in the 1980s we had a French teacher that just walked out of the room everytime he had us in the 3rd year. In the end he just decided there was no point teaching or speaking French so just put Neighbours on to stop the Shouting. Indeed my Maths teacher told us he would not bother us if we did not bother him. He said quite openly he was not going to expect us to do any homework or any classwork . He actually allowed the class to take the 'piss' out of the girl for daring to ask about doing Maths at a higher level.

BertrandRussell · 13/02/2017 21:06

Because anecdotes from 30 years ago are so incredibly relevant to this discussion.

Actually I do think that's part of the problem. Most people have no experience of schools except the one they went to.

flyingwithwings · 13/02/2017 21:17

No Actually Bertrand if you compare and contrast this video with Educating Yorkshire/Essex you will see the children are more respectful to the teachers in 1977 and less overall anarchy is evident. I admit the teaching is quite hilarious , particular the History teacher teaching 1st years. A totally useless character.

cantkeepawayforever · 13/02/2017 21:27

Flying,

Would you say that a programme such as educating Yorkshire / Essex shows typical life in a typical comprehensive or secondary modern today? Or that the school - and the editing - would have been chosen to provide greater entertainment rather than greater reality?

My children attend a comprehensive, and have laughed at the very small amounts of such programmes they have seen, as bearing about as much resemblance to their everyday experience in the classroom as the little girl with the strange clown + blackboard on the TV test card does to todaty's primary schooling.

For various reasons, i have been able to observe a lessons in a variety of different schools over the last 5 years or so. The only truly, truly dreadful one (in terms of both teaching and off-topic behaviour) was in a high-flying grammar.

Ta1kinPeace · 13/02/2017 21:48

Flying
I know of kids who were in the classes as Bohunt involved in the Mandarin programme recently.
Do not trust ANYTHING you see on the telly about comprehensive schools
it is always edited for "story" and "drama"
most of the Bohunt parents were very, very unhappy with how the school was portrayed as it did not match the experience of the children.

BertrandRussell · 13/02/2017 21:58

Sorry, I should have said that most people's experience of schools are their own and the schools on the telly. Starting with Grange Hill........

flyingwithwings · 13/02/2017 22:04

OK editing has a lot to do with giving the people what they want to see . I would imagine watching many hours of pupils sitting in nice straight lines in silence would make very dull viewing.

flyingwithwings · 13/02/2017 22:06

Bertrand You now Grange Hill was a highly sought after Grammar before Phil Redmond in 1978, hence the very middle class girls off to Cambridge in the first episode.....

Ta1kinPeace · 13/02/2017 22:06

I would imagine watching many hours of pupils sitting in nice straight lines in silence would make very dull viewing.
Yup
And that is most of what was filmed at Bohunt and other schools.

DH goes to over 100 schools a year. I'll trust his views of comps over any politician or journalist.

HPFA · 15/02/2017 08:32

Good one here:

Nick Gibb seems to believe that education in Stoke-on-Trent needs to be a "national priority" for improvement

t www.stokesentinel.co.uk/video-education-minister-vows-to-make-stoke-on-trent-a-top-priority/story-30135995-detail/story.html

Seems that the grammar school in Stoke stjosephstrentvale.com/ has not had a transformative effect on the neighbouring schools?

flyingwithwings · 15/02/2017 09:48

stjosephstrentvale.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Admissions-2016-2017.pdf

This is explains just how 'poor' standards are in stoke generally. The school only requires a score of '105' as opposed to the general '120'ish in most normal grammar schools. That only equates to level 4 SATS at 11 .

The entry requirements are just above the average attainment of pupils taking an 11+ exam '100'.

However, the school takes the top of the ability range for the town.

This school is not effecting the other schools in the area , it is in reality just offering a 'Comprehensive ' school that is taken for granted in places like 'Winchester' !

Ifailed · 15/02/2017 10:01

It's strange that people can get (rightly in my view) concerned about selective education in secondary schools, but not so bothered about it when it comes to undergraduate level?

BertrandRussell · 15/02/2017 10:06

"It's strange that people can get (rightly in my view) concerned about selective education in secondary schools, but not so bothered about it when it comes to undergraduate level?"

I never understand what people mean when they say this.

MumTryingHerBest · 15/02/2017 10:08

flyingwithwings Wed 15-Feb-17 09:48:02 That only equates to level 4 SATS at 11

Hardly a Grammar intake then. Who will attend the Grammar School?

MumTryingHerBest · 15/02/2017 10:09

Ifailed Wed 15-Feb-17 10:01:35 but not so bothered about it when it comes to undergraduate level?

Do you get many 10 or 11 year old undergraduates?

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 15/02/2017 10:11

Selective education in secondary schools is internationally proven to perpetuate social inequity (the earlier the selection the worse the effect).

OP posts:
Ifailed · 15/02/2017 10:11

BertrandRussell

If it's wrong to select students at 11, why is it OK to do it at 18?

BertrandRussell · 15/02/2017 10:13

Because education is not compulsory post 18.

MumTryingHerBest · 15/02/2017 10:15

Ifailed Wed 15-Feb-17 10:11:41 If it's wrong to select students at 11, why is it OK to do it at 18?

Do you not think that an 18 year old would have a higher level of academic, intellectual and emotional maturity than a 10/11 year old?