URGENT! Government education proposals: you seriously won't BELIEVE number 14!

[noblegiraffe]

Click-bait title, sorry!

But today's really the last day to tell the government their plans for grammar and faith schools stink contribute to the government consultation 'Schools that work for everyone' (except poor kids, those with SEN, the less academic and atheists)

Consultation document:
consult.education.gov.uk/school-frameworks/schools-that-work-for-everyone/supporting_documents/09.12.2016%20%20Publication%20%20Schools%20that%20work%20for%20everyone.pdf

Online Survey:
consult.education.gov.uk/school-frameworks/schools-that-work-for-everyone/

It's a really long document with lots of confusing questions but they will have to record all responses as there will definitely be a FOI request put in to find out the results. Even if you just head straight for the grammar section and say that you are against the creation of more secondary moderns, please just fill out that bit and leave the rest blank. Ignore the questions and write what you want to. Oh, and if you can point out that Northern Ireland which is a selective system did worse than England in the PISA results, that would probably annoy them

Unless you are in favour of the proposals in which case the consultation ended yesterday

I would like the question to be answered - of those full 11+ counties, e.g. Bucks, where I believe the 11+ is either compulsory or at least requires an opt out rather than an opt in, how many of the Upper Schools are classed as Outstanding? How many of their Grammars are RI?

In Bucks especially I know of people who live in villages bordering Oxfordshire, so they play the system by putting Aylesbury Grammars first and then Lord William's, Thame, a good Oxfordshire comprehensive second, and only then the Bucks Sec Mod. But of course, anecdote is not data..........

I'd also be interested in that to be honest.

DoctorDonnaNoble Fri 16-Dec-16 10:30:16 I'd also be interested in that to be honest.

The information can be found here:

www.compare-school-performance.service.gov.uk/

Search on Buckinghamsire
Select the area radius/secondary/Ofsted Rating

As far as I could see, all the Bucks Grammars were designated Outstanding, 5 of the Sec Mods were, a decent number were rated Good, but then you had 8 Sec Mods Requiring Improvement, and one Inadequate.

But apparently, other people's children will do just fine at a Sec Mod. They might if they are one of the lucky ones, near one of the Outstanding or Good schools.

This morning I read the Economist Article about the PISA tests recently released
(easy to find but paywalled so I'll not do the link)

Systems that have selection at 11 do worse
Systems that delay selection till 16 do better

nuff said

PISA is flawed for a variety of reasons.
However, I would like our government to do more research into why Finland is so successful. They always seem to ignore Finland (I suspect because the Chinese model is cheaper to replicate).

fillingmymap.com/2015/06/08/the-three-real-reasons-for-finlands-high-pisa-scores/

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-32302374

internationalednews.com/2014/06/09/assessment-in-finland-steering-seeing-and-selection/

Interesting to see they do have selection,at grade 9.

I read somewhere else they push the reading and as a nation publish more children's books than any other country.

I suspect looking at that first link they don't have the postcode lottery we suffer from or the system we have with areas like London being a world away from other areas of the country.

Would love to see the bellyaching on grammar schools put towards the huge postcode inequalities we see in the comp sector. That said I guess the champagne socialists would find their DC miss out on the best "comprehensive" places so I can see why it never happens.

I am not a Socialist, and have lived in areas which got rid of Grammars more than 40 years ago. Some of them have excellent Comprehensives, others less so, and no, it's not always to do with how wealthy the areas are. One quite working class town had one of the best comprehensives going.

Instead of wanting to replicate a system which was supposedly wonderful for a handful of children getting on for the better part of half a Century ago, let's look to those good comprehensives now and see if what they do to serve all their children can be replicated elsewhere.

Having lived in predominantly rural areas for most of my life I know that for most children in such areas there is usually only one school which is in reasonable travel distance, so let's try to make sure that this school is good.

BTW by all means go on about Socialists - but in practice, the Labour party doesn't have a particularly glorious reputation when it comes to educational policies, and it was Maggie Thatcher who got rid of more grammar schools/Sec Mods. Why? Because Sec Mods were a vote loser.

Yes, let's take what worked in London - more funding and co-operation between schools and spread it around the country. No, the government want to do the opposite. Cut the funding and divide and conquer the schools.

GreenGinger2 Sat 17-Dec-16 07:44:50 Would love to see the bellyaching on grammar schools put towards the huge postcode inequalities we see in the comp sector.

If comprehensive schools had 10 or 20 mile catchments and only selected from only 25%-35% of the DCs living in that area, based on random allocation rather than address, then perhaps a fair comparrison can be made.

You might also like to take a look at property prices around Sir William Borlase’s GS, Marlow (distance cut off this year was 3.3 miles).

But still no desire to correct the huge inequalities in the "comp" sector........

But still no desire to correct the huge inequalities in the "comp" sector........

So what's your solution? Have a few more grammars, and then let the rest go hang, with no attempt to address the huge inequalities in the remaining sector. Which there would be.

Greenginger
Grade 9 in Finland is age 16 as they do not start school till 7

Donna
China has been pulled down the rankings this time as it was not allowed to cherry pick which schools and cities to submit.

THe top scorer by a mile is Singapore

• minimal private schools
• no selection before 16
• highly paid respected teachers
• big classes

Yes, PISA is flawed. Last time I posted lots of links to the flaws in the methodology
BUT
they took the criticism on board and massively improved their sampling and cohort selection methods
it is the best we have and we should not ignore it

Selection at 11 does not give better outcomes for those on either side of the divide in the long run

GreenGinger2 Sat 17-Dec-16 09:51:05 But still no desire to correct the huge inequalities in the "comp" sector.

But, for some, there is an obvious desire to increase the inequalities created by the Grammar sector it would seem.

BTW, a lot of people have said that they don't want Grammar Schools they want more invested into providing good comps. for all.

I haven't had the time to check PISA out yet. That's good news re:China. I have often wondered how schools are selected to take part.
I know that the school I teach in is the best place and gets great results for the vast majority of our students. I see no reason why our style of education shouldn't be done elsewhere. But then I got told off in teacher training as it was 'wrong to expect students to do all off Oliver Twist' (the task we'd been given) and I was 'dreadfully elitist' to even try and give them that experience! My first placement school (according to my Uni a 'worse' school than my second placement) had high expectations of students and I loved it. My second placement school had a good rep but was crap. Anyway, all this is by the by and not to the point.
The point, which I think all the teachers on here agree on , is DONT SPEND MONEY ON VANITY PROJECTS THAT WON'T WORK WHEN THEY SYSTEM IS FALLING APART. Or have I got that wrong too?

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Singapore

Don't Singapore stream at the end of primary. Kids are allocated schools at the end of primary based on the results of PSLE exam. Looks like the 11+ with bells on reading the above. Selection and then some.

Read the article more carefully
kids choose schools
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_School_Leaving_Examination

I did.

Schools are allocated based on merit in the exam and choice. There are 4 streams based on the test once they start secondary- special,express,normal and normal technical. On top of that the top 1% are also creamed off to schools for the gifted and talented.

I'm always puzzled by the idea that restoring grammars/ secondary moderns will somehow reduce the effect of socio-economic advantage. The ones who pass will be mainly from the more advantaged sections of society anyway. Of those who fail, the better-off will go private or to one of the more academic secondary moderns (predominantly in well-off areas) and those who do not have the option of either will go to the remaining secondary moderns. We already know that comprehensives in poor areas can struggle, they won't be improved by their children believing the test has proved they are "not academic" and by the worsening of teacher recruitment that will likely follow.

I live in the 11+ catchment area for Ripon Grammar and both the Grammar school and its corresponding 'modern' school are OFSTED outstanding.The latter achieves 65% GCSE A*-C incl English and maths.The 11+ system well run serves both cohorts brilliantly.

Why the need to separate these two excellent schools then? I imagine that there is a continuum of abilities in all subjects rather than two distinct cohorts.

Of course the government should invest properly in comprehensive schools.

My DC's comp is not 'posh', it is not 'leafy' , it has way over the national average FSM, and it produces excellent results at all levels and across all sections of the very diverse community.

The funding of London comps, where this is not unusual, needs replicating nationally.

And not destroying in London while they are about it.