URGENT! Government education proposals: you seriously won't BELIEVE number 14!

[noblegiraffe]

Click-bait title, sorry!

But today's really the last day to tell the government their plans for grammar and faith schools stink contribute to the government consultation 'Schools that work for everyone' (except poor kids, those with SEN, the less academic and atheists)

Consultation document:
consult.education.gov.uk/school-frameworks/schools-that-work-for-everyone/supporting_documents/09.12.2016%20%20Publication%20%20Schools%20that%20work%20for%20everyone.pdf

Online Survey:
consult.education.gov.uk/school-frameworks/schools-that-work-for-everyone/

It's a really long document with lots of confusing questions but they will have to record all responses as there will definitely be a FOI request put in to find out the results. Even if you just head straight for the grammar section and say that you are against the creation of more secondary moderns, please just fill out that bit and leave the rest blank. Ignore the questions and write what you want to. Oh, and if you can point out that Northern Ireland which is a selective system did worse than England in the PISA results, that would probably annoy them

Unless you are in favour of the proposals in which case the consultation ended yesterday

You need to be careful when making absolute assumptions about children from poor backgrounds not getting to grammar schools.

My foster daughter did not have the greatest start in life yet she made it to grammar school !

I just thought it was worthwhile pointing that out, though in reality its because she has been with us since she was 7 . Also i must point out a lot of tutoring enabled her to catch up to the level of other bright children in her class not from such circumstances.

flyingwithwings I don't think anyone woud claim there are no children from poor backgrounds attending Grammar Schools. However, the vast majority will be of the oppinion that there are very few. I'm assuming your FD does not qualify for FSM? The FSM figure is what many people, including myself, are basing this assumption on. I appreciate that we may be very, very wrong and Grammar Schools may be stuffed full of children from deprived families.

Missed it. Too late to fill in survey.

Anyone want to place any bets on when the results of the consultation will be released?

The Ebacc consultation closed on 29th Jan and we are still waiting for the results of that. Apparently they'll be out by the end of the year

This report has more info:

schoolsweek.co.uk/just-about-managing-pupils-significantly-under-represented-in-grammar-schools-claims-sutton-trust/

By the way, the bit about technical schools? What is technical ability? Why does failing the 11+ prove you have it? What if you failed the 11+ because you're bad at Maths but can write a great poem? What happens to you in these "Technical schools?"

Apparently loads of professional bodies wrote response saying what a terrible idea it is. I wonder how the government can wriggle out of that one?

All my 5 kids have gone to a grammar school and I say 'bring it on'!

December How nice for you. Glad to see you're so full of concern for all those who will fail the test.

RedNails "Because ontop in the real world, teachers have to spend most of their time and energy helping the lower ability ones."

I don't think that is true but even if it was then there is going to be a shift in that as the government has decided that for its 'Progress 8' measure the difference between grades at the top of the grade scale are more valuable and worth more points than differences at the bottom of the grade scale.

I think Progress 8 is going to make life quite difficult for the Grammar schools as the prior attainment of the students is going to naturally be high even if it is the result of tutoring and pressure aged 11 so they are really going to have to step up the pressure on students at GCSE time or the school will risk a negative score. That is not an environment I would want my child in.

The only reason progress 8 has made our life difficult is that we have had to switch from IGCSE to GCSE again! (CIE English Literature was closer to A Level so we preferred it, ho hum). Our value added score is quite healthy thank you very much. I am aware that the plural of anecdote is not data. As it happens I have mixed feelings on my sector. It doesn't work how it is 'meant' to due to tutoring. I don't like the Kent system. However, where we are we have a smattering of superselectives and I would say the other schools are comprehensive. I teach quite a few of their students at A Level. If I stay in this area, I don't really mind which secondary my son goes to. They're all good. Why do I teach at my school then? Well, I enjoy teaching Year 7 and sixth form. That's not possible in a lot of schools.

Our state school head teacher told me that the funding structure/formula for all state schools (academies, comp, church, grammar etc) was going to change and be made more "even". Urban schools will loose out as they have a city weighting that will be attacked.

If this is true it strikes me as a much more widespread and fundamental change that will effect every school, not just a couple of hundred grammar schools.

Has anyone else heard about this?

Some information on the new national funding formula proposals:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-36855827

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-38301843

DoctorDonnaNoble It doesn't work how it is 'meant' to due to tutoring.

Are you referring to tutoring to pass the 11 plus or tutoring once in the school?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_6kZ8kj3LY&t=560s

This is a film we need to watch when discussing or debating grammar schools.

The film brings up many points not least of them being , why are the local comprehensives not able to cater for a bright girl !

Secondly should a 'disadvantaged' family be forced to go in to debt to fund school uniform and transport , when the local state schools cannot educate adequately this bright child.

Despite the proclamations about the brilliance of 'Hampshire' Comprehensives it is clear the same circumstances do not apply to this Leeds suburb.

I am not saying more grammar schools are the answer, however how would it be fair for this child to gone to the local poorly performing comprehensive.

Therefore if you agree this child needs a much more academically focused education and that the local school was not able to provide, it must be right she goes to the Private Leeds Grammar.

The second point being why should a parent from disadvantaged circumstances have to indebted themselves so the child breaks the glass ceiling 'of not for likes of us'

Surely the school pay the fees and shouldn't the local authority pay for the girls Uniform and Buss pass. Because it is evident the local catchment school would not be good enough for this ambitious child !

Therefore if as a country we do not go down a large school re-introduction of grammar schools can someone suggest the answer for similar children to the film.

It is one thing calling grammar schools 'rotten' but if you do that where are the alternative proposals to enhance the life chances of bright deprived children !

flyingwithwings It is one thing calling grammar schools 'rotten' but if you do that where are the alternative proposals to enhance the life chances of bright deprived children !

I take it you are not aware that one of the objections to Grammar Schools is that there is a shocking low number of deprived children in them. Why do you think that is?

flying If this child's local school is not good enough then it's not good enough. Turning it into a secondary modern will not help and is likely to make things worse. It isn't acceptable for the majority of children to have their chances of a good education worsened, especially when London schools have shown that it's perfectly possible to have good schools for all.

The wonderful Becky Allan has said it best here
rebeccaallen.co.uk/ that there is nothing we want for prospective grammar schools pupils that we do not want for all children.

Have now had time to take a quick look at Leeds statistics - out of 37 Leeds schools only 2 stood out as having a possible problem in that around 60% of High Achievers in these schools attained 5+ GCSE inc E and M. In the vast majority of Leeds schools this figure is 90% or above.

The measure is a crude one obviously - but it does not suggest at all that we should be imposing secondary moderns on Leeds. Will do some more digging if I get time.

Thank you Data Editor. Those links got me up to speed.

Having read them, I would reitereate that those proposals are far more potentially damaging to the whole education that grammar school proposals.

Some information on the new national funding formula proposals:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-36855827

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-38301843

Tutoring to pass.

Doctor i know overall tutoring for entrance examinations for grammar schools is frowned upon. However, in the case of my very bright exceptional FD do you think four years tutoring was the correct and right approach.

The tutoring not only enabled FD to pass her 11+ with flying colours but to get the same level that she would have been at if she had not had such a shit start in life.

The cost worth every penny £60 a week for 4 years. The joy on FDs face when she passed her 11+ was one of the most joyous things in my life.

There are always exceptions to every rule. This is certainly the case for my FD tutoring gave an opportunity for a child who in most circumstances would not of have been able to make the best of her academic ability.

If she is bright and exceptional yet needed 4 years of tutoring to pass the 11+ then cope at the grammar, then that just shows that the 11+ isn't doing what it is supposed to (selecting bright kids regardless of prior schooling), and neither are grammars (teaching bright kids to succeed regardless of prior schooling).

Two years of that four years were concentrating on catching up with the Maths/English skills that were far below her ability due to her chaotic background.

These kinds of things are not central to the thinking of a dope smoking alcoholic AKA: The Mother.

It is a great achievement for FD to have left her previous existence and adapted with aplomb to everything she encounters.

Noble despite your assumptions (about needing four years tutoring and thus not being exceptional). I totally disagree FD is one truly extraordinary and delightful 13 year old daughter.

That's not what I meant, I wasn't saying she wasn't exceptional.

I'm saying that the 11+ was supposed to catch exceptional children and put them in a special school for exceptional children. That's why it's not curriculum-based. If it couldn't be relied upon to catch your DD without tutoring, then it doesn't work. If a grammar school couldn't reliably teach your DD to the highest standards without her already having been taught to the highest standards, grammar schools have failed in what they are meant to do.

Two kids

number one :
parent met and married when they were 16, neither educated, both dyslexic
so did not encourage child to learn
all through primary kid was deemed utterly lower middling
year 8 CAT tests suddenly showed them up as a dark horse
ended up with a string of really good GCSEs

number 2 :
child prodigy at numbers
ended up with a string of A* gcses including 5 variants of maths
took great glee in holding Cambridge and Imperial to ransom for his 5 x A* at A2
but got low grades in English because not dyslexic but allergic to sentences

neither would have passed the 11+
because one is a late devloper and one is a narrow scope
luckily this is a comp county so got the best from both

without tutoring
without selection
without stress

Thank you for clarifying that Noble.

As i said up-thread that potentially there could/would be a large no of families who will not get what they expect with a grammar school .

I suggest though naivety the very people that are applauding the proposals believe their children would pass and many would be in for a rude awakening.
Also an important thing to consider is these policy ideas are not to find favor with the establishment whether those be teachers or experts in education. They are designed to find favor with a significant no of the UKIP or Brexit voting public. This policy idea could gain PM May an extra 350,000 votes or 12/15 seats at the next GE . For the very reasons suggested up-thread.

Therefore they could not give a 'rats arse' what any non Conservative voting professional might think of their ideas.

However, nobody has come up with an alternative way of improving education for bright but under privileged children.

Its the equivalent of moaning about the damage petrol driven cars have done to the environment. This being before electric cars became a practical solution (only just happening now after 20 years) but having no other practical solution of transporting millions of people to work.

Its just saying you don't like something but you have no idea how to change something for the better yourself.
I am neither pro or anti grammar school