Secondary school with no setting and almost no homework

[thedogatemyzebra]

We had to move house over the summer holidays. So DD, who is academic and was meant to start secondary at a great grammar school, is now at the local comprehensive that we knew very little about before she started there. I was feeling ok about this, as it seems to have a good reputation, but have now found out that they don't set for anything (even maths) at any stage. DD was bored and frustrated at primary school, where they didn't have ability groups and she found it very slow going, particularly maths, and seemed to spend a fair amount of her time helping the other children. I'm now worried that this will happen again, and that she will be stuck very slowly going through the exam curriculum for 5 years. They also give almost no homework - she apparently does her maths homework while walking the short distance between school and home.
There are no other realistic schooling options where we are. Have others been in this situation? How did you support your DC?

Have a chat to her tutor or email.
Some schools don't stream straight away in year 7 and if they do may just do core subjects at first.
Ask what school policy is. If mixed ability, ask how they differentiate in lessons.

I've talked to the maths teacher, and she was quite clear that the school doesn't stream or set at all, at any age and for any subject. And everyone learns the same things.
Have other people come across this?

Sounds completely bizarre, and I'm surprised OFSTED aren't all over them! I would think that there must surely be some differentiation in the work given, even if there is no formal setting or streaming? What are the school's results like?

They do well in the league tables. My concern is that they probably focus on getting people through the exams, and are not concerned with going beyond the exams or getting higher grades for the brighter children.

Zebra Our local secondary is like this, except that they do set for maths. They have a 'good' reputation too, but they also have a culture of massive cheating on GCSE so-called "controlled" assessments. It will be interesting to see what happens to their results once the first cohort of GCSE students with no coursework/controlled assessments comes through.

How bad it is will partly depend on the intake of pupils. Ours is the only secondary in a market town, so is very mixed ability-wise. Science-oriented children seem to have a better time of it, because of the maths setting and because triple and double science means science to some degree sets itself. Also, it's easier in science subjects to work from GCSE revision guides. However, my daughter is keen on humanities, and was badly let down; the kind of higher-level discussion and writing pratice needed for humanities was seriously lacking.

You can get tutors, of course, but my DD would come home from school exhausted from the boredom and the social demands of constantly "working in groups" with lower ability and uninterested children. I would advise talking seriously to your DD about the need to work outside of school, and to have regular set periods where she does independent reading or revision.

I find it incredibly irritating that so many people will tell you (for instance when talking about grammar schools) that "all comprehensives set". They bloody well don't.

Whether they set or not, it is down to your daughter teachers to meet her needs - i.e. stretch her. If you can't get anywhere talking to the school, I'd give her lots of extra work at home. Also, is there definitely no school that she could commute to? She might prefer to spend 30min on a train but be surrounded by like mided children + more challenge in the classroom.

If you are concerned that they don't get higher grades for brighter children, what is their progress 8 score like?

One word 'Bog Standard' Comprehensive !

I am sorry you DD was not able to benefit from the grammar school education that she warranted !

How do you know Bog standard?!
Such a rude term by the way....

One word 'Bog Standard' Comprehensive ! and.....?
Most bog standard comprehensives set/stream and give homework, what's your point?

bog standard comprehensive

That's three words. Clearly grammar standards are that high.

DS's school is the same. Their results are virtually identical to the nearby school (with broadly similar intake) that sets in every subject from day 1.

You don't mention that there is actually a problem with the school - just that you are worried they might be. A school that does well in league tables (unless you just mean the number that Grade C or above ...?) is unlikely not to stretch its most able students. What does the Ofsted report say (again, they will look for progress of most able students)?

O.K . The best Comprehensive schools set and try to ape Grammar Schools, hence why the best ones use artificial methods to select their pupils.

Four. It's not about my standard of punctuation , grammar or numeracy but about how we can improve on the shambolic education that was typical thirty years ago .

Under a hardly changed original name i advocated for grammar schools to be available to access in all areas.

I have stated a preference for a 40% grammar system, so any school that does not separate the strongest students from the weakest will be scorned by me.

A school that does well in league tables (unless you just mean the number that Grade C or above ...?) is unlikely not to stretch its most able students.

As I wrote above, some schools have been cheating heavily on their GCSE controlled assessments, and bumping up their position on the league tables that way.

Also, even an honestly earned A* in some GCSEs is by no means "stretching" for the most able pupils. Modern languages is perhaps the best example of this.

You can't bump your position up on the league tables by cheating on controlled assessments, because the headline measure is both Maths and English. Maths is exam-only, so even if they cheat and get everyone to pass English, their % will be determined by how many they get through maths, and it's first entry only counts so they can't even go the old route of entering kids every session from Y9.

it's early days, it might get better. astonishing they don't set for maths though that is very unusual even in schools which are anti-streaming they usually do set for maths from year 9 if not before.

How many GCSE A or A* grades do they get each year?

if it is low i would be moving her regardless of commute.

The "shambolic" education of 30 years ago has already been improved upon.

And not by ensuring that 60% of children aren't clever enough.

Look at the results (not just progress and attainment 8, but EBACC, A Levels and HE destinations) and the latest Ofsted report. Given that she has passed the entrance exam for grammar, ask what the offer is for pupils identified as gifted and talented.

Noble - I take your point with regard to the completely non-setting school the OP is talking about, but I was thinking of our school, which does set for maths, but for nothing else.

The school is in Scotland, and the system is totally unfamiliar to me. Maybe not setting is more common in Scotland? I've asked to meet with someone to discuss the not setting. Apparently they used to divide the children into 2 sets only for maths, but decided to drop that and not set at all. I got the impression it was because of not wanting children to feel bad that they weren't in set 1 rather than set 2.
I've already decided that I'll have to do some home education of DD. I can do stretching in English, history and languages with her. But I don't honestly think that I can stretch her in maths or science, which were my weak subjects at school. And I'm not a teacher, at the end of the day. It's mainly the maths that I'm worried about. Can't really afford tutoring.

All teachers should differentiate regardless of setting or streaming - challenge high ability pupils extra support to low ability etc. Just because not setting doesn't mean they're not doing this ??? Even when setting and streaming there's stronger and weaker abilities within classes. Setting and streaming isn't always great as it creates 'sink groups' where low ability kids get stuck with disruptive kids - not great and kids are massively aware of where they are 'ranked'.

Op on the other side are there any good independents nearby that you could have a look at? If there are and you/dd like them would it be possible to apply for a bursary? Some do do up to 100%, however I obviously dont know your family financial income.

I've checked the local private school (a long trek away) - they are adamant that they offer no bursaries unless you apply at exactly the right time, which DD has missed.
DD's school has a better local reputation than the one other which is commutable, plus it means a lot to her to be near to schoolfriends.
I think we will have to suck it up.

I'd really like to talk to parents of children higher up the school, but not sure how to meet them.

Different schools do different things
look at their actual results
how well do they do with their high achievers
if they do well then they - as the trained teachers - are clearly onto something
if they do not, then ask questions

I am in Scotland and my son is just completing his secondary education.
The curriculum of excellence offers a broad general education for the first 3 years. Then the children naturally are set as in 4th year start working on their national qualifications. In your daughters case she will mote than likely be presented for 6 national 5 qualifications in this year. Equivalent to gcses. Then sit 4/5 highers in 5th year and then advanced highers in 6th year and any particular highers she needs for further education.
Curriculum for excellence is relatively new and their is lots of information on education Scotland website for parents and on the Scottish govt site. If you want some local Intel on your school Pm me. I work for a national organisation and I and my colleagues have contact with schools in every region.