Tiffins school, Kingston

[lilybetsy]

DS has just been offered a place from the W/L here. Anybody got any first hand experience as I am deeply conflicted about this...

Yes amidawish that is where the Tiffin tutor negativity comes from - and being able to get through the previous style exams therefore with years of practice despite perhaps not being of a high ability level. Hopefully that has changed now!

I didn't want DS to go to Tiffin, we used it as a back up and it served it's purpose. Many reasons, but the ethnic balance and the lack of success for sports teams (yes a sad reason I know but when looking at schools DS would always look at their sports results!), sports grounds not on site etc. etc.

Having said all that, as a state option for us it was been the best one.

Never been to the Walsh duo. Was just speaking of tutors generally. But looking back the kids who did go to the Walshes all got in.

I think the comment about the ethic make up of Tiffin is a bit off.

Strix, I assume that comment is directed at me. A bit unfair I think, though it may depend on whether you believe tutoring makes a difference. And then whether you feel that access to and knowledge of tutoring is evenly disbursed across different communities.

(And why, if tutoring does not make a difference, as some children expected to do so much. Especially bright children who are Grammar candidates as opposed to those who might be struggling with key skills. Their childhood could be so better spent broading their knowledge and experience by things like playing and reading. And then if they really have selected the best, why don't Grammar school seriously outperform those private schools which are often used as backup.)

A real life example. I had an West Indian colleague whose son was clever and doing very well at school. So no need to tutor. She put him in for the exam at the local (as it turns out super-selective) Grammar school. He was two marks short. It was only after mentioning this to a couple of colleagues that she realised her poor son was up against kids who had been sitting round that kitchen table for years. She had no idea. My recollection was that when my DC tried, Grammar schools went out of their way to emphasise that tutoring was not necessary.

And I also disagree with "the kids who did go to the Walshes all got in". Perhaps better rephrased as the parents of the kids who got in raved about the Walshes. The rest kept quiet, unless at a coffee morning with other Y7 parents at a Plan B school when they rant. The thing about tutoring is that you only know what other parents choose to tell. Until you get a different version via your child and theirs.

strix the comment would be off if it were racist but it is a fact the Tiffin has almost 70% BME pupils compared with 45% in schools in the borough (lower in some of the neighbouring feeder boroughs) as a whole. Coombe which as we have discussed has similar results for it's top sets has 50%. Greycourt, another outstanding state school that achieves comparable results in top sets, in the neighbouring borough but similarly within a short distance of the Tiffins has 35%. Meanwhile Tiffin has only 2% of pupils with FSM whilst the figure is 9% in the borough as a whole (with 14% of children living in poverty). Coombe has 13%. Greycourt has 17%. This is the source of some of these numbers, the rest are easy to find online www.kingston.gov.uk/download/downloads/id/324/jsna_core_data_set_201314.pdf These are statistics gathered by local boroughs to monitor whether their resources, particularly educational resources, are being used in a fair way and that the most disadvantaged are being supported. What they indicate is that the Tiffins are not reflecting the social make up of the communities they select from and are failing to select on ability regardless of background and therefore failing to be a vehicle for social mobility, the reason we have state funded selective schools in the first place. they were never meant for middle class parents who didn't want their precious clever children to have to mix with the rif raf

The tutoring culture, especially the one associated with reasoning tests that the schools had allowed (probably for financial reasons to be fair) to become predictable which consisted of hours of mind numbingly boring repetitive completion of test papers to inch up the scores of the not quite able enough to achieve the required score from native ability (which the genuinely most able can achieve without tutoring) has to be a prime suspect for this disparity between the pupils walking through the gates of Tiffin and the wider community. It also led to a lot of misery for a lot of children. It was a challenge to self esteem for those who "failed", most of whom are bright and capable of doing well in the top sets at any outstanding state school as Coombe and Greycourt demonstrate, or in private schools that get slightly better academic results (though probably not much difference in terms of university outcomes). It had very little added value educationally, except perhaps in terms of work ethic. However how much better to inspire a work ethic in children by stimulating them to want to learn by studying something that is educational and interesting. And once a pupil gets in as a result of years of this sort of tutoring they are ill equipped to keep up with the speed and nature of the teaching at Tiffin hence the continuing need for tutoring, and I suspect the reason Tiffin finally addressed the issue. Let's hope the new test regime has bought an end to this racket.

I don't think anyone would object to parents supporting their children in learning what is required to do their best in an exam, timing, those parts of the curriculum not covered, etc. That they can do themselves or with the help of a responsible tutor who will make it a positive educational experience. However the combination of anxious parents and tutors who exploit that anxiety has led to a lot of practises that damage children's lives. None of the admissions tests for selective schools should require years of tutoring, excessive repetitive practise of test papers, children to be put under pressure and / or deprived of a chance to play and have a normal childhood. The private schools are by and large quite good at spotting ability and potential without that requirement. Let's hope Tiffin have got there too.

As to why people wouldn't want to go to Tiffin, I think that has already been said, seeking better resources, a wider focus on sport and the arts, worries about the pressure and the cohort........ Finding a school for your child isn't a horse race with just one finishing post, it is about finding the right course in the first place.

Yeah just a factual comment, didn't realise it was only 70%, it looks more than that - recent cricket match against them and all of the players were in the 70% for example.

The Head of Sport at Tiffin once said, if you come here then be prepared to lose at sports. And the cricket pitches are the worst in the area - Tiffin was dropped by Esher CC from being used as one of their satellite grounds this year due to the poor state (dangerous) state of their pitches.

OP-it seems you have made your decision.Very often one has to go with gut instinct and there is nothing wrong with that despite with all this information on this thread.I am reminded of a family friend who had three sons,one went to Tiffin,one to KCS and one to a state comprehensive(Richard Challoner).The mother was a secondary school teacher so knew a bit about education and all 3 boys did well with the comprehensive boy becoming a maths teacher so I want to show this friend was very pragmatic and chose the schools most suited to her sons and taking their abilities and personalities into account.Take this into consideration especially if you have other children.
I do wish to comment on recent posts:
RACE
Does this matter?My son goes to the organised overseas trips (classics trip)and everyone had British passports and no one had a foreign one.I do not see this as a issue.Many studies have shown it Is the Chinese and Asian communities that do well academically but it is the poor white and black backgrounds that struggle.I know there are many socio economic factors at play here and indeed my friend is a parent governor at a North London primary and they are trying to target and help these groups with special reading classes which is laudable.I am trying to point out that the cohort at Tiffin is a reflection of what maybe is happening in the country as a whole.
TUTORING
In a cohort of 150,you will find some are heavily tutored,some have parental help and some left to their own devices.I would be very surprised to extrapolate that the whole cohort is tutored .I suspect this is true at other schools not just Tiffin and particularly the independent ones.Indeed I would say it is more rife at the private schools as it is these parents that can afford the exorbitant hourly rate these tutors charge in this neck of the woods.
FACILITIES
KCS charges £21k KGS £18K I estimate Tiffin earns £5.5 to £7k centrally per student.The school works hard behind the scenes to plug the gap with fundraising and donations and is a proud school but it is difficult to compare like with like.
RESULTS
Tiffin has a valued added score of 1043 which is not too shabby,remember anything over a 1000 is good and as the figure suggests, value is being added.Rated 18th best in the country by the Sunday Times and for an offbeat recommendation look up Tatler.Rated outstanding by Ofsted.There are lunchtime maths clubs run by older boys to help those in difficulty.
OP-I hope this helps.

Pop I agree with you totally that different schools suit different pupils and indeed that Asian pupils do tend to have a good work ethic and do well academically.

However you missed my point on race and tutoring. The private schools do not have the particular issue that with selection based solely on predictable reasoning tests Tiffin was finding itself with a part of its cohort (it is in the nature of reasons tests that the genuinely very able will score very highly without anything more than six or seven tests for familiarity) that had been heavily tutored purely to that test to get their score up and therefore were not only not as able as their test scores would indicate but also not well prepared in terms of the actual literacy and numeracy skills they need for secondary education. The selection tests aimed to be a test of ability but had also become in part a test of whether parents were willing to subject their children to such an educationally valueless tutoring regime, and that underpins the skew you see . I am sure nobody thinks that is a sound way of selection. I do however know lots of people from Asian backgrounds who were not prepared to do that and instead made in some cases considerable sacrifices to send their children to schools like LEH and Hampton and I know plenty of non Asian families who trotted down to the hairdressers in Ham to find the secret telephone numbers of the tutoring factory. Private schools do not have such a high rate of tutoring going on because they are using lots of different sorts of evidence, including reasoning tests that they have invested in making unpredictable and therefore not tutorable, to assess not just ability and potential but the different dimensions of that ability and also whether the pupil has the qualities they know will enable them to thrive in their school, they go to some lengths to see beyond tutoring. On the whole they get it right and most handle the demands of the teaching that is tailored to their needs without problems, especially with all the support available. That is the comment I have heard from Asian parents, that their investment is worthwhile because their children are not on the continuing treadmill that some of their Tiffin peers are. However lets hope that model of selection is what Tiffin have moved to and have not just decided that if they are going to have heavily tutored cohorts then they might as well have been tutored in Literacy and Numeracy as well.......

At the open day the headmaster of one of the highly regarded private schools spent some time explaning the parents why the local grammar is not as good as this school. Clearly they are loosing the brightest to Tiffin otherwise why would they bother to spend time on talking about it.

Was Tiffin the 'local grammar'. I assume not. There is such competition for places at any well regarded secondary school in SW London that I doubt schools give it too much thought.

Elsewhere this may be an issue. But the discussion is about Tiffin and KGS.

Oh well that proves it then. Clearly they are loosing (sic) the brightest to Tiffin

Yes, local grammar was Tiffin. and i was surprised myself that the point was raised at the open day.

So Tiffin takes the 'brightest' yet still doesn't get better results than all other schools locally... so it's a relatively poor standard of education if it fails people in that way? So relatively poor facilities, poor teaching (you have established)... maybe paying for it is the best way??

Anecdotally I know 5 boys who turned down Tiffin in favour of other schools last year, so therefore they haven't taken the 'brightest' have they, as the 5 that replaced them were at the bottom of the entry list and 3 of those replaced that I know were towards the top end. And my population sample is relatively small!

The new Head of KGS (if it was KGS) was formerly Head of a state Grammar so maybe he is particularly focused on "compare and contrast" as he has moved between the different environments, though I don't think that Grammar School was the subject of quite such a fevered selection process / tutoring culture.

@whatwouldrondo -reading your post ,I seem to think that you consider the entrance exam for Tiffin in years gone by as somewhat limited,heavily dependent on tutoring whereas the independents selection process was more rounded.I hope this is a fair summation and to a certain extent you make some good points however in my opinion you somewhat underestimate the calibre of these boys.I will focus on my son's class.As I mentioned before my son was awarded a place at KGS he had to pass English,Maths and reasoning plus interview via 10+,I think he was among 20 from 230 applicants.Some of his class I have come from prep schools including KCJS.Obviously we turned down KGS but others in his class turned down KCS and Hampton.I would say about 5 boys got the full house of Tiffin and all the Sutton Grammars.We know some even turned down scholarships mainly due to the reward being too low.There are some boys due to their circumstances Tiffin was their only preferred and viable option.Even those who admitted they came form the waiting list show great ability.Hand on my heart I would say my son is of average ability in this cohort and we accept this as he is doing his best.My point being and I am being genuine here is that every boy in his class,on his day, would also pass the independent entrance exams and do well at those schools.

Pop I am sure they are all capable of getting into independents, the ability range at the private schools should be wider. Tiffin has 2000 applicants, even KGS which is one of the more popular has only 700 in comparison. Schools like LEH and Hampton have even fewer with 400 or so (though probably self selected if not on ability then gender!) . And this area is served by a range of private schools. Parents may panic at 11 but the brightest do get into all the schools and even those not able to get into the most selective private schools will get into schools like Surbiton High that still have very good academic results.

The point is that Tiffin as a state grammar is supposed to select the very brightest on ability regardless of background, that is their role in society and the basis on which they are funded. That is why traditionally the 11+ was always a reasoning test, intelligence test in old money. I don't know the cut off now, it is doubtless higher, but in theory not so long ago it was supposed to be taking those who scored above the 97th percentile i.e in the top 3% of the population. When I went to a very selective grammar nobody was tutored for these tests and I am quite sure the cohort was the very brightest and above all it reflected the social and ethnic mix of the local community (which did have a large immigrant community -and not necessarily with British passports -I though that was an odd comment, not a few of my DDs' peers at a private school did not have British passports but given that Tiffin require the pupils to sit the exam on one day in Kingston whilst the independents allow pupils to sit them in their own schools overseas it isn't really surprising). The academic results were a match for the best private schools in the country. As I have posted before it enabled many friends from disadvantaged backgrounds to go on to achieve great things - two BBC correspondents for instance.

However I have read defenders of the need for intensive tutoring on here boast that over a period of years they improved their son's score from the 90th to the 97th percentile to get them into Tiffin. LEH for instance look for reasoning scores above the 95th percentile (on untutorable tests). If Tiffin were truly recruiting from the top 3% of the population they should be outperforming the likes of LEH academically by quite a margin, and they don't. Indeed they barely outperform the top sets /high attainers at Coombe and Greycourt. I don't think that is particularly down to the teaching, I am sure it is excellent but even uninspiring teaching will enable the brightest and motivated even if it is by pushy parents to get good results. I am quite sure, in fact know, that as a result of the testing regime that amongst the bright boys who genuinely score above the 97th percentile (and would without any tutoring ) there were boys who only managed to score that highly because of intensive (to the point of what I would frankly regard as bordering on child abuse) tutoring. I think it is morally unacceptable. It also means some of those less able have had to continue with tutoring to keep up and coming from families who are prepared to go to those lengths to get their child in it does affect the culture of the cohort. OP was choosing between KGS and Tiffin. In contrast the USP of KGS in a crowded private school market is that along with the usual theatre, sports facilities etc it has a friendly relaxed encouraging environment for a cohort with relatively mixed ability, compared to the likes of KCS and Hampton. Some parents chose it over Hampton /LEH as a result. Whether that is right for OPs child and /or worth the extra money was of course a decision for OP.

Great length and informative posts! Has the school changed the entrance admission to Maths and English? If so I dont think anyone who could ever benefit less from tutoring in Maths and English if its needed. If its not for the entrance exam then surely it will only do them good in Secondary having great foundation for mathsand English.
A year ago I used to think Tiffin for girl(I have girls) is the only good school that we must get in in the area. Now learning about Private then there is another option for people who could afford it to have good education in the South west London too. We are actually spoiled with choices for great private!
Then after few months on mumsnet I learnt one more thing, getting a place at a good secondary school is only a START, its another 7 years harder game! Nice!

Tiffin is a great school. To suggest otherwise (as a few comments on here have) is just plain silly. But it's not the only great school in the neighbourhood. However, it is the only one that's free.

The entrance test is a two stage maths and English test. The scores are ranked based solely on stage two. So VR and NVR count for very little.

Why are you assuming that Tiffin is a great school? You haven't even experienced it yet as you say previously that your DS starts in Sep?!

So far it's been shown that it takes a pretty high level of candidate, then lets them down by failing to achieve results much better than others that you would expect them to beat, and fails on the sports front as it doesn't have the facilities or the level of coaching (to quote a Tiffin coach directly recently). It fails to reflect the make-up of society by admitting 70% from one background and 40% who have English as a second language. (And it has the silly stripey blazer that DS said he would never wear .)

So I'm struggling to see how well Emperor Tiffin's new clothes fit?

Where's the proof that top sets at Coombe Girls and Grey Court achieve similar results to Tiffin? I had to look at the 2014 results (updated Nov 2015) as the Dept. for Education have made their new performance tables incomprehensible but the average GCSE grade for high achievers at Grey Court is B+, for Coombe Girls A- and Tiffin Boys A+. Can you score higher than A+? Surely the fact that Tiffin scrapes the top 20 state schools in the country for both GCSEs and A levels must recommend it.
I don't see how you can compare Tiffin (state boys' school) with LEH (private girls' school, fees £19,000 pa) for a meaningful comparison. Perhaps we should compare in a few years time when the new linear exams are standard?

SAHD, your only valid point is the silly stripey blazer. But, in choosing a school, I must admit the uniform was not among the criteria I considered.

Whats the implication of 40% minority with English is a second langue SAHD?
I agree my English is terrible even I have been living and working in uk for more than 10yrs, my boss who is a French, his English is terrible too even he is a global head of a department in an uk bank.
However my daughter's English(never has less than 100% in spellinf), writing, comprehension has been top of the class. Many of my friends' children who are billingual are top in the class in English too. And I could tell you she has never had a tutor and surely we cant teach her with our English either. Do not judge or weight down the disadvantage (or an advantage) of a well diversified school. We many time choose to mix with people who work hard rather than pure/white English who doesnt appreciate of hard work

I really like the stripy blazer and wish DS will wear it one day. (we are speaking another language at home and so he must stand a good chance). It is very recognisable in Kingston and indicates clever" rather than "silly". People in Kingston would not tell the difference between Hampton and KGS uniform, for example. Those who has the dilemma of Tiffin or private should choose private and free places for those, who has not that "hard" choice. BTW, DD is at TGS and very happy.
SAHD, dId you have another name here? Your attacks on Tiffin ring the bell...

@SAHD -you do not need to have a child at the school to have an opinion.You can make enquiries,ask other parents,use this forum and attend open days to form views.Indeed,this is what most parents have to do.Your dismissal of Strix's view was rude in my opinion.

The only implication re the 70% or 40% stats is that means that the school is not reflective of society as has been mentioned by someone else previously - why is that? I am saying that it's not well diversified. What's the FSM % compared with the average?

Ok I get it that some people are not interested in the sports and their 'perennial loser' teams, but some are (whether that is a good or bad view is another matter!).

I would never say a school was 'great' if I hadn't experienced it fully and to be dismissive of the opposite view is bizarre. I think DS1's school was great (for him) and we shall see if DS2's school is great (for him) after a few years.

No, no other name here, but good to hear that someone else can see through the spin!

The KGS and Hampton uniforms have a different badge by the way, and a different colour tie, but I guess that's not obvious for some!

We many time choose to mix with people who work hard rather than pure/white English who doesnt appreciate of hard work

This is racist.